Trade rumor thread

[OneManBand]

I'm guessing if the Reds do trade him that they'd have to pay that deferred amount in full then.

[Kc61]

6 of these in MLB last year. In other words, a top tier catcher. Just not a reasonable expectation -- add in all the other stuff, and you're asking Jocketty to do the impossible.

Not so. There are a much higher number of catchers at .750.

You are probably just looking at those with a qualified number of at bats. A small group since the catcher position is usually split.

And if you read my post I said I didn't expect Walt to upgrade every position. But he can upgrade several offensively. Just the healthy return of Ludwick itself is an upgrade.

Getting players to OPS more than .725, a mark many Reds did not achieve, isn't that hard. Even .750 except maybe at SS. You don't have to mortgage your pitching staff.

[lollipopcurve]

Not so. There are a much higher number of catchers at .750.

Oh, OK. Like Corky Miller, Francisco Cervelli, Brett Hayes and Dioner Navarro. Come on. It is far preferable to stick with Mes and Hanigan, both of whom have the potential to hit better than they did last year.

But he can upgrade several offensively.

For example? Who would your SS and C targets be, seeing as how you seem comfortable with LF as is...

[Kc61]

Oh, OK. Like Corky Miller, Francisco Cervelli, Brett Hayes and Dioner Navarro. Come on. It is far preferable to stick with Mes and Hanigan, both of whom have the potential to hit better than they did last year.



For example? Who would your SS and C targets be, seeing as how you seem comfortable with LF as is...

At 250 PAs, there were 15 MLB catchers at .750 or over. If you expand it to .730 there are two more. So above 250 PAs, people with substantial playing time, there were 17 catchers above .730.

Devin Mesoraco was at .649. He was thirtieth of the 250 plus PA catchers. Ryan Hanigan was at .567, he was thirty seventh.

If Walt is incapable of acquiring one of about 17 catchers who can hit for a decent OPS he shouldn't be the Reds GM. As for Navarro, he hit .856 OPS in 266 PAs last season and I dare say he would have been one of the Reds' best hitters.

As for shortstops, it's tougher, but not impossible. If you think having a below .300 OBP shortstop is acceptable then we have very different views. And I admire Cozart's defense, I like him, but he just has to get on base more to be a good team starter.

If the fan base is either (a) too in love with the present players or (b) too defeatist to posit the possibility of improvement, then they should get used to September/October disappointment.

As for LF, I think folks are jumping all over Ludwick but he was hurt and hit very well in 2012. He's signed for next year and I'd take the risk that he'll do well enough. He's the kind of mid-level major leaguer the Reds should have at several more positions.

[TRF]

I don't think 2013 is indicative of Mes' offensive abilities.

[PepperJack]

At 250 PAs, there were 15 MLB catchers at .750 or over. If you expand it to .730 there are two more. So above 250 PAs, people with substantial playing time, there were 17 catchers above .750.

Devin Mesoraco was at .649. He was thirtieth of the 250 plus PA catchers. Ryan Hanigan was at .567, he was thirty seventh.

If Walt is incapable of acquiring one of about 17 catchers who can hit for a decent OPS he shouldn't be the Reds GM. As for Navarro, he hit .856 OPS in 266 PAs last season and I dare say he would have been one of the Reds' best hitters.

As for shortstops, it's tougher, but not impossible. If you think having a below .300 OBP shortstop is acceptable then we have very different views.

If the fan base is either (a) too in love with the present players or (b) too defeatist to posit the possibility of improvement, then they should get used to September/October disappointment.

As for LF, I think folks are jumping all over Ludwick but he was hurt and hit very well in 2012. He's signed for next year and I'd take the risk that he'll do well enough. He's the kind of mid-level major leaguer the Reds should have at several more positions.

I can understand sticking with Ludwick in LF. But the allowances you are willing to give him while looking past Mesoraco I don't get. From all accounts Mesoraco was playing injured quite a bit as well, and while you may be willing to look past his still sporadic playing time, I believe that should be considered.

The team is still high on him from all accounts, and local reporters have said he would have been getting more time the past couple of seasons with a different manager, whether they feel that was a Jocketty/Baker dispute I don't know.


As for SS, I would love to see what Stephen Drew's market price will be, if Profar or something else can't be worked out through trade.

[OneManBand]

What the Braves do at 2nd with Uggla is going to be a telling story..If they are able to find a taker on him (hope it's not us).. I'd love to see a package around Phillips + in return for Simmons +

[Gary Redus]

ATL for Phillips is a good idea - kick the tires there at least. Ludwick is a sunk cost, he's on the team. Major league teams have guys like him on the roster but there's no guarantee he'll return to pre-injury production.

[Kc61]

I can understand sticking with Ludwick in LF. But the allowances you are willing to give him while looking past Mesoraco I don't get. From all accounts Mesoraco was playing injured quite a bit as well, and while you may be willing to look past his still sporadic playing time, I believe that should be considered.

The team is still high on him from all accounts, and local reporters have said he would have been getting more time the past couple of seasons with a different manager, whether they feel that was a Jocketty/Baker dispute I don't know.


As for SS, I would love to see what Stephen Drew's market price will be, if Profar or something else can't be worked out through trade.

I give Ludwick allowances because he hit .877 OPS in a full Red 2012 season and has a lifetime OPS of almost .800. Mesoraco has never OPS'd even .650 in the big leagues. I just won't assume that Mes will suddenly become a serious hitter, although it's certainly possible.

But really it's up to the scouts and coaches to use professional opinion. If they are confident one or more of these guys will hit, keep them. Maybe add a Navarro to complement Mes and provide an additional bat. Hanigan's hitting is not good anymore.

At the same time, though, the team is in a good window now and if the scouts and coaches think a starting player is "defense only" or is 50-50 to hit, then they should consider an average or slightly above veteran who can be obtained at a fair cost, short contract.

I really doubt the offense will get better by sitting still.

[Kc61]

I don't think 2013 is indicative of Mes' offensive abilities.

That's fine but the Reds' catchers provided almost pitcher-like offense last year. Reds catchers combined were next to worst in the NL and near the bottom in baseball in OPS.

So they have to decide if they want to risk that again or make changes. One option is keeping Mes and coupling him with a guy who hits well.

But when you have a position that hits woefully, it's worthwhile to try and avoid that result next year somewhow.

[M2]

What the Braves do at 2nd with Uggla is going to be a telling story..If they are able to find a taker on him (hope it's not us).. I'd love to see a package around Phillips + in return for Simmons +

Simmons is probably untouchable. Evan Gattis however ...

Would you put him behind the plate and do you believe in the power?

[TRF]

I give Ludwick allowances because he hit .877 OPS in a full Red 2012 season and has a lifetime OPS of almost .800. Mesoraco has never OPS'd even .650 in the big leagues. I just won't assume that Mes will suddenly become a serious hitter, although it's certainly possible.

But really it's up to the scouts and coaches to use professional opinion. If they are confident one or more of these guys will hit, keep them. Maybe add a Navarro to complement Mes and provide an additional bat. Hanigan's hitting is not good anymore.

At the same time, though, the team is in a good window now and if the scouts and coaches think a starting player is "defense only" or is 50-50 to hit, then they should consider an average or slightly above veteran who can be obtained at a fair cost, short contract.

I really doubt the offense will get better by sitting still.

Ludwick's lifetime OPS means very little. You have to look at his years to seethe real picture.high ceiling, sub-level basement for a floor. If you want to bank on a 35 year old LF with an EXTENSIVE injury history, well, that's your opinion. Mine is he had a .609 OPS after the all-star break in 129 AB's. And that was in essence his entire season minus two plate appearances on opening day. I thank him for his service, tell him he's a pinch hitter and that we need his leadership in the clubhouse. If that doesn't work for him, eat the contract, lesson learned.

Both guys behind the plate were dinged up for most of the year. Mes needs to get the bulk of the PT, but yeah, I sign another guy for insurance, just in case.

[PepperJack]

I give Ludwick allowances because he hit .877 OPS in a full Red 2012 season and has a lifetime OPS of almost .800. Mesoraco has never OPS'd even .650 in the big leagues. I just won't assume that Mes will suddenly become a serious hitter, although it's certainly possible.

But really it's up to the scouts and coaches to use professional opinion. If they are confident one or more of these guys will hit, keep them. Maybe add a Navarro to complement Mes and provide an additional bat. Hanigan's hitting is not good anymore.

At the same time, though, the team is in a good window now and if the scouts and coaches think a starting player is "defense only" or is 50-50 to hit, then they should consider an average or slightly above veteran who can be obtained at a fair cost, short contract.

I really doubt the offense will get better by sitting still.

I don't want to sit still this offseason at all.


I agree with you on some positions. I am okay with Ludwick going in as the starter in LF next season. I believe if there can be a better SS found, the Reds should jump at it.


On the catching however, the Reds have time and money invested in Mesoraco, and need to find out if he is the plus bat that everyone hopes he can be. He will be arb eligible after 2014, so this is the season to see what they got while he is cheap. For the last two seasons he has been told to focus on defense, and given sporadic playing time. I believe those are to valid reasons for a lack of offense to this point. I also believe he should catch at least 4/5 of the rotation going forward, so I don't think a legit backup or platoon catcher would benefit in that situation.

That said, I believe the team needs to move on from Hanigan, to both improve on offense, and allow Mesoraco the freedom to grow without looking over his shoulder.

If Mesoraco does not seize the opportunity then hopefully the team can find a better upgrade at that time.

[Kc61]

Ludwick's lifetime OPS means very little. You have to look at his years to seethe real picture.high ceiling, sub-level basement for a floor. If you want to bank on a 35 year old LF with an EXTENSIVE injury history, well, that's your opinion. Mine is he had a .609 OPS after the all-star break in 129 AB's. And that was in essence his entire season minus two plate appearances on opening day. I thank him for his service, tell him he's a pinch hitter and that we need his leadership in the clubhouse. If that doesn't work for him, eat the contract, lesson learned.

Both guys behind the plate were dinged up for most of the year. Mes needs to get the bulk of the PT, but yeah, I sign another guy for insurance, just in case.

I find this backwards. Ludwick hit almost .900 OPS for the Reds in 2012 and helped save the team when Votto went down. He misses over four months with injury in 2013 but gets no credit, no chance next year. He's benched.

But the two catchers, neither of whom remotely has Ludwick's resume as a hitter, get excused for being dinged up and require only "insurance" presumably at AAA. Whatever.

If they want to give Mesoraco another year, fine, no problem, but they had better add some offense back there, more than insurance sitting at AAA.

[bellhead]

I find this backwards. Ludwick hit almost .900 OPS for the Reds in 2012 and helped save the team when Votto went down. He misses over four months with injury in 2013 but gets no credit, no chance next year. He's benched.

But the two catchers, neither of whom remotely has Ludwick's resume as a hitter, get excused for being dinged up and require only "insurance" presumably at AAA. Whatever.

If they want to give Mesoraco another year, fine, no problem, but they had better add some offense back there, more than insurance sitting at AAA.

I think you need to give Mesoraco the starting catching job and see if he can handle it, at for a half of year. The times he wasn't dinged up and starting consistently he was producing.