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Thread: PBS Frontline: "League of Denial"

  1. #16
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: PBS Frontline: "League of Denial"

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat13 View Post
    What might save football is that the money is just so huge that people will pour resources into equipment research in hopes of developing a helmet that cuts down on concussions.
    That would be great but I'm afraid they would be so expensive that most schools couldn't afford them. Helmets aren't cheap now so I can't conceive of a helmet that would do that and be affordable.
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  3. #17
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: PBS Frontline: "League of Denial"

    I think its premature to be predicting the demise of football. Boxing was NEVER as popular nor has so much money at stake. Plus, it already had a bad rap, associated with thuggery, gambling, and some really hard to like characters.

    Football has cheerleaders, marching bands, booster clubs, football Friday night glory, college scholarships in big money programs. There is still plenty of "for the love of the game" tied up in football, so the analogy I see with boxing is "name two dangerous sports."
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  5. #18
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: PBS Frontline: "League of Denial"

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat13 View Post
    But Boston/Mass has never really been a hotbed of high school football anyway, has it? In rural Ohio high school football is still a big deal. Not as big as 10 years ago but my observation is that is due to the increased time commitment in the offseason, not safety concerns. The good athletes still play it, the guys who just came out to wear the jersey no longer do because the time investment is so great now.

    As far as the upper middle class suburban white kid, I have my doubts that they've given up on football in high school due to safety concerns. I simply think they've moved on to other sports that they have a better chance at being elite. The odds are tough for them in football (unless they are big) and basketball.
    Ohio, Pennsylvania and Texas exist in a different stratosphere when it comes to football. Boston/Mass is a lot like the rest of the country in terms of football. The sport got a huge shot in the arm in this region from Doug Flutie, but that's worn off pretty much everywhere outside of Boston College and his hometown. The Patriots have become a popular thing to watch, but they haven't made football more popular to play. Interestingly, the other major schools in Boston outside of BC and Harvard have dropped football.

    I think the safety concerns indirectly affect HS football. If you're a parent concerned about the general safety of football then you likely won't enroll your kid in a program at the youth levels. Instead that kid may play a half dozen other sports. And if he doesn't play a ton of football in the neighborhood, then HS football is pretty much off the table.

    Also, upper middle class kids have a different perspective on sports. They're going to succeed in life with or without sports. They have a wider variety of sports they can play (lack of economic barriers and access to more programs) and they gravitate toward which sport they like best rather than which sport they feel they have to play in order to make it big.

    Just as a for instance, my daughter plays fairly high level soccer. That program has lost players to gymnastics, skiing, lacrosse, swimming, horse riding, basketball and hockey. There's a lot of competition out there.
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    Re: PBS Frontline: "League of Denial"

    Funny full circle on football which used to be an upper class sport because rich kids didn't have to count on uninjured bodies to make money.
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    Re: PBS Frontline: "League of Denial"

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat13 View Post
    What might save football is that the money is just so huge that people will pour resources into equipment research in hopes of developing a helmet that cuts down on concussions.
    This strikes me as a Red Queen exercise.

    I'd like to see how American Football compares to rugby in the injury department. My guess is that the forward pass is the root cause. Scrums can be tough but not in the same way as flying hits.
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    Resident optimist OldRightHander's Avatar
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    Re: PBS Frontline: "League of Denial"

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    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: PBS Frontline: "League of Denial"

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...gue-of-denial/

    Did anyone else watch this last night?

    My one major takeaway (although, I kind of knew it already) was that the NFL was shameful in how it ignored the struggles of former players suffering with brain injuries. You would think a league as rich as the NFL would just quietly offer suffering former players money just to shut them up.
    You know, buddy, I think the NFL has a murky future...

    They have a violent sport that MRI's and scans are revealing some things they'd rather not see and they have some decisions to make.
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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: PBS Frontline: "League of Denial"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    You know, buddy, I think the NFL has a murky future...

    They have a violent sport that MRI's and scans are revealing some things they'd rather not see and they have some decisions to make.
    I wonder why the NHL doesn't come up in these conversations? Or all levels of hockey? If you're teeth are getting knocked out, I imagine your cage is getting rattled in the process.
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  12. #24
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    Re: PBS Frontline: "League of Denial"

    http://deadspin.com/family-of-player...51387/@barryap

    Why Did Derek Sheely Die?

    It claims that Frostburg was running two-a-day practices, including a variation on the "Oklahoma drill," where two players line up three yards apart and crash into each other at full-speed. During each drill, Sheely would repeat this 30-40 times.

    On the first day, the suit alleges, running backs coach Jamie Schumacher commanded players to lead with their helmet—"hat first." If they did not comply, it claims, he would publicly berate them and call them a "*****."

    On the second day, Sheely's forehead was busted open, and began "bleeding profusely." The suit claims he was examined by a trainer, bandaged up, and sent back in without being administered a concussion test. On the third day, the same process happened twice more, again without a concussion exam, even though the suit claims he had suffered one the previous season.

    On the fourth day of full-contact drills, the lawsuit alleges, Sheely again began bleeding, and again was bandaged and sent back in.

    During the offensive and defensive "inside-run drill," in which all coaches were around and full-speed contact was required, Derek was involved in a significant amount of contact. Shortly after one play, Derek walked back to the huddle and explicitly informed Defendant Schumacher that he "didn't feel right" and that he had a "headache."

    With Defendant Rogish, and on information and belief other members of the coaching staff, standing right next to Defendant Schumacher and thus clearly hearing Derek's disclosure, Defendant Schumacher yelled, "Stop your *****ing and moaning and quit acting like a ***** and get back out there Sheely!"
    After a few more minutes of drills, Sheely walked to the sidelines, collapsed, and never regained consciousness. The suit claims he died from second-impact syndrome, a controversial condition where the brain swells after receiving a concussion before symptoms from a previous concussion subside.
    Schumacher still coaches at Frostburg State.
    http://www.frostburgsports.com/staff.aspx?staff=186
    He is a "Ball Security Expert"
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    Last edited by klw; 11-13-2013 at 12:42 PM.

  13. #25
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: PBS Frontline: "League of Denial"

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    I wonder why the NHL doesn't come up in these conversations? Or all levels of hockey? If you're teeth are getting knocked out, I imagine your cage is getting rattled in the process.
    I'm sure it has been mentioned in the past - especially when you hear about these guys (mainly the enforcers) doing the same things as the NFLers. But the NHL isn't even in the same league in popularity in this country that the NFL is. It's the same reason we don't hear more about the same problem in soccer, lacrosse and rugby. Perhaps concussions in the NHL and their aftereffects are more of a topic in Canada than in the U.S.
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  14. #26
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: PBS Frontline: "League of Denial"

    Hockey players take a lot of hits, but you don't see nearly the same level of violent impacts to the head that you do in football. Hockey is lots of body blows.

    Hockey players also rarely get pancaked to the ground the way NFLers do in games and in practice.
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    Member klw's Avatar
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    Re: PBS Frontline: "League of Denial"

    In US High schools, the 2nd highest number of concussions is in girl's soccer.
    http://www.sfgate.com/health/article...re-4879926.php
    Girls' soccer is second only to boys' football in the number of concussions during a game, several studies show, and other research indicates that girls report different concussion symptoms than boys, increasing the possibility that girls' injuries could be overlooked.

    Football is still, by far, the biggest concussion culprit. It's responsible for 47 percent of all high school sports concussions, according to a 2012 study in the American Journal of Sports Medicine. But girls' soccer is next, with more than 8 percent of all concussions.
    And in team sports that both boys and girls play, such as basketball, soccer and baseball/softball, girls were almost twice as likely as boys to have concussions. Doctors are calling for more research to find out why.

    A separate 2011 study in the Journal of Athletic Training revealed that headaches are the most commonly reported concussion symptom for both girls and boys, but other symptoms differ by gender. Boys with concussions are more likely to report amnesia and confusion or disorientation, while girls are more likely to say they're drowsy or sensitive to noise.
    http://www.concussiontreatment.com/concussionfacts.html
    CDC estimates reveal that 1.6 million to 3.8 million concussions occur each year
    5-10% of athletes will experience a concussion in any given sport season
    Fewer than 10% of sport related concussions involve a Loss of Consciousness (e.g., blacking out, seeing stars, etc.)
    Football is the most common sport with concussion risk for males (75% chance for concussion)
    Soccer is the most common sport with concussion risk for females (50% chance for concussion)
    78% of concussions occur during games (as opposed to practices)
    Some studies suggest that females are twice as likely to sustain a concussion as males
    Headache (85%) and Dizziness (70-80%) are most commonly reported symptoms immediately following concussions for injured athletes
    Estimated 47% of athletes do not report feeling any symptoms after a concussive blow
    A professional football player will receive an estimated 900 to 1500 blows to the head during a season
    Impact speed of a professional boxers punch: 20mph
    Impact speed of a football player tackling a stationary player: 25mph
    Impact speed of a soccer ball being headed by a player: 70mph
    http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10362&page=3
    Compared to other contact sports, head injuries are common in soccer. In neuropsychologist Dr. Jill Brooks’ study of high school soccer players, she found that more than one quarter of them had experienced one or more concussions. Neuropsychologist Dr. Ruben Echemendia reported that in his study of college athletes, over 40 percent of the soccer players had at least one concussion prior to attending college. By comparison, only 30 percent of the incoming football players in the same study reported having had a concussion.
    ...
    Dr. Brooks found that many high school soccer players neglected to report experiencing a concussion, because they didn’t think it was serious or wanted to continue playing in a game. “Most concussions go unreported,” she said.

  16. #28
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: PBS Frontline: "League of Denial"

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    I wonder why the NHL doesn't come up in these conversations? Or all levels of hockey? If you're teeth are getting knocked out, I imagine your cage is getting rattled in the process.
    It's a concern. Youth, college and pro hockey authorities are establishing zero tolerance policies on hits above the neck. The upside for hockey is you can play it without blows to the head. In football heads crash on every play.

    Quote Originally Posted by klw View Post
    I remember doing drills like that. You really can't play tackle football if you don't lead with your head. You've got to commit 100% if you want to knock the other guy backward.

    Quote Originally Posted by klw View Post
    In US High schools, the 2nd highest number of concussions is in girl's soccer.
    And that's why when I'm coaching girls' soccer I instruct my players not to use their heads. We should be teaching them to make plays without their skulls.
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  17. #29
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: PBS Frontline: "League of Denial"

    Hockey is concerned about as the game is faster and the players charge the net more than in the past. We are seeing more end board collisions than ever, couple that with the fighting issues concerning concussions and you do see a lot of talk at the pro level. E

    Especially in areas that they play hockey, like Canada and Michigan.

    Fortunately the lower levels of the game go to greater lengths to protect players than the pros, via rules and equipment, something football doesn't really approach.

  18. #30
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: PBS Frontline: "League of Denial"

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    And that's why when I'm coaching girls' soccer I instruct my players not to use their heads. We should be teaching them to make plays without their skulls.
    Completely anecdotal, but my wife's friend is an athletic trainer at a high school and she says that the majority of concussions she sees in soccer are from mid-air collisions going for a header or from impact to the head going to the ground.

    I'm curious as to whether or not they'll eventually start requiring headgear for soccer at amateur levels -- maybe not to the level of what Petr Chech wears, but perhaps something that offers some padding to the head for collisions.
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