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Thread: Are the Cardinals currently the top team in all of American professional sports?

  1. #31
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Cardinals currently the top team in all of American professional sports?

    Ohio State football.

    Pay attention to the open sky

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  3. #32
    Member MattyHo4Life's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Cardinals currently the top team in all of American professional sports?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    You mean they should follow the plan they put into place when they were with the Cardinals?

    I have no problem admitting that the Cardinals have been a great organization this past two decades. That just means that the Reds are on the same path.
    The Reds should not follow the plan that Jocketty put into place when he was Cards GM. During that time the Cards farm system was very weak. Jocketty built a great Major League team, but didn't do so well with the drafts. Now, Jeff Luhnow has been really good at drafting good players. When it comes to trades though, nobody can beat Jocketty. He's has made some of the best trades for both the Reds and Cardinals and he rarely gets the bad end of a trade.

  4. #33
    Knowledge Is Good Big Klu's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Cardinals currently the top team in all of American professional sports?

    Quote Originally Posted by WMR View Post
    Talk about a painful question to ask!

    Their only competition, IMO, would be the Miami Heat of the NBA.

    Their success is hard to swallow... worst part is how easy it all seems to come to that franchise.
    I am convinced that the Cardinals sold their collective souls to Satan.
    Eric Stratton, Rush Chairman. Damn glad to meet ya.

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  6. #34
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Cardinals currently the top team in all of American professional sports?

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyHo4Life View Post
    The Reds should not follow the plan that Jocketty put into place when he was Cards GM. During that time the Cards farm system was very weak. Jocketty built a great Major League team, but didn't do so well with the drafts. Now, Jeff Luhnow has been really good at drafting good players. When it comes to trades though, nobody can beat Jocketty. He's has made some of the best trades for both the Reds and Cardinals and he rarely gets the bad end of a trade.
    I don't buy the Walt = weak system thing, whether he had a big say in the draft or if it was Luhnow (who made first round selections like Tyler Greene and Pete Kozma) or whoever. The Cardinals with their skill, their luck, their 'Cardinal Way', whatever you want to call it, just find these players who turn into productive major leaguers whether they are drafted in the first or fortieth round.


    The most interesting thing I have read about Jocketty's strategy is from VivaElBirdos

    Between 1997 and 2002 he traded for an entire infield full of all-stars (McGwire, Vina, Renteria, and Rolen), plus Jim Edmonds, Darryl Kile, and Woody Williams. The best players he gave up for that package were a couple of so-so closers (Braden Looper and Jose Jimenez), an ok 2bman (Adam Kennedy), and a good 2bman (Placido Polanco). But a few things changed after 2002. First, the Moneyball era began: Advanced metrics and production-per-dollar analysis became more prevalent throughout baseball, and Jocketty’s trade opportunities dried up --- there were fewer teams he could outsmart. Second, the St. Louis ownership maxed out the payroll. Most of the players on the list above were acquire-and-sign additions --- with the lone exception of Renteria, they were all acquired in the last year of their contracts (which is why they were available for so little talent) and then signed to multimillion-dollar extensions. By 2005...He could no longer get star players on the cheap and then sign them to extensions; he had to pay full price for them talentwise.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

  7. #35
    Member MattyHo4Life's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Cardinals currently the top team in all of American professional sports?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    I don't buy the Walt = weak system thing, whether he had a big say in the draft or if it was Luhnow (who made first round selections like Tyler Greene and Pete Kozma) or whoever. The Cardinals with their skill, their luck, their 'Cardinal Way', whatever you want to call it, just find these players who turn into productive major leaguers whether they are drafted in the first or fortieth round.
    Most of the Cardinals on the current team were drafted after Walt left. I was a huge fan of Jocketty when he was a Cardinal...he built some great teams. You don't have to buy it, but the Cardinals did not have a strong farm system until after Walt left.

  8. #36
    Member MattyHo4Life's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Cardinals currently the top team in all of American professional sports?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    Between 1997 and 2002 he traded for an entire infield full of all-stars (McGwire, Vina, Renteria, and Rolen), plus Jim Edmonds, Darryl Kile, and Woody Williams. The best players he gave up for that package were a couple of so-so closers (Braden Looper and Jose Jimenez), an ok 2bman (Adam Kennedy), and a good 2bman (Placido Polanco). But a few things changed after 2002. First, the Moneyball era began: Advanced metrics and production-per-dollar analysis became more prevalent throughout baseball, and Jocketty’s trade opportunities dried up --- there were fewer teams he could outsmart. Second, the St. Louis ownership maxed out the payroll. Most of the players on the list above were acquire-and-sign additions --- with the lone exception of Renteria, they were all acquired in the last year of their contracts (which is why they were available for so little talent) and then signed to multimillion-dollar extensions. By 2005...He could no longer get star players on the cheap and then sign them to extensions; he had to pay full price for them talentwise.s
    Like I said, he made some amazing trades. My favorite is tradiing for Wainwright. He is still making great trades, Latos for example.

  9. #37
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    Re: Are the Cardinals currently the top team in all of American professional sports?

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyHo4Life View Post
    Most of the Cardinals on the current team were drafted after Walt left. I was a huge fan of Jocketty when he was a Cardinal...he built some great teams. You don't have to buy it, but the Cardinals did not have a strong farm system until after Walt left.
    Walt was around for 14 years. Most of that time, the Cardinal farm system was excellent. During their most successful years, when they were drafting at the bottom of the first round, his drafts didn't produce much. That's common for teams that successful. He basically was a victim of his own success, for a brief part of his reign in Saint Louis.

    Anyway, even if he's terrible at drafting players, if he makes up for it by making smart trades, who cares. The facts are that Jocketty had a brilliant 14 year run as GM of the Cardinals. Whatever his plan was, it worked like a charm.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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  11. #38
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Cardinals currently the top team in all of American professional sports?

    The answer depends upon what time period you use in choosing the top professional team in American sports. Over the last century the pick has to be the Yankees.
    Since 2000 I would pick the L.A. Lakers, with five NBA championships. With five Super Bowl appearances and three championships I would take New England in that time period.
    As for baseball since 2000 at this point I would take the Cardinals, but if the Red Sox go on to win the World Series that would give Boston three world championships since 2004 plus at least a couple of more ALCS appearances since 2003, so Boston would deserve consideration.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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  13. #39
    Member MattyHo4Life's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Cardinals currently the top team in all of American professional sports?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Anyway, even if he's terrible at drafting players, if he makes up for it by making smart trades, who cares. The facts are that Jocketty had a brilliant 14 year run as GM of the Cardinals. Whatever his plan was, it worked like a charm.
    I agree 100%

  14. #40
    Member MattyHo4Life's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Cardinals currently the top team in all of American professional sports?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Walt was around for 14 years. Most of that time, the Cardinal farm system was excellent.
    You mean when he first took over as GM, the minor league system that he inherited was good? I just don't remember the Cardinals having an "excellent" farm system until just recently. The Cardinals would get one or two stars from the minors, but almost the entire rest of the team came through trades. That formula worked for the Cardianls. All I'm saying is that isn't the formula that the Reds should use, and they haven't been using it.
    Last edited by MattyHo4Life; 10-11-2013 at 11:43 AM.

  15. #41
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    Re: Are the Cardinals currently the top team in all of American professional sports?

    They certainly in the last five years have drafted excellently. As others have said this was not always the case. The Pujols decision is overrated as an management issue since they had an open offer of 7 years to him at the winter meetings. I assume if Pujols had taken the offer and said I can't leave they would have the same issues as the Angels have had with Albert.

    I would say that they do draft really well similar to the Ravens, Packers and Steelers in NFL or OKC and Chicago in the NBA. However, Steelers do show that this can run in cycles if you are always drafting from the back of the draft.


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