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Thread: World Series Discussion

  1. #511
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: World Series Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    The thing is the Red Sox busted the play but you want the Cards to suffer the consequences of the busted play due to the Red Sox ineptitude.

    Keep in mind I was rooting for the Red Sox.
    I was rooting for the Cardinals.

    Why should the Red Sox suffer because Craig choose to run an inside slant instead of directly toward home plate?
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  3. #512
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: World Series Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    Again, him raising his legs didn't matter. The act of him lying between Craig and home plate is what caused the obstruction.
    I understand that. I was commenting only on comments that he did it on purpose trying to trip Craig....not as it relates to the ruling by the ump.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  4. #513
    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: World Series Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    Here's an interesting quote from rule 7:

    Rule 7.09(i) Comment: When a catcher and batter-runner going to first base have contact when the catcher is fielding the ball, there is generally no violation and nothing should be called. “Obstruction” by a fielder attempting to field a ball should be called only in very flagrant and violent cases because the rules give him the right of way, but of course such “right of way” is not a license to, for example, intentionally trip a runner even though fielding the ball.
    http://deadspin.com/heres-the-obstru...car-1452859734
    Ok, that is interesting. There WAS obstruction simply by the fielder being in the way of the runner. It was impossible to avoid but that's that.

    BUT ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    You can't let a fielder trip a baserunner. Craig would have been safe if not impeded. Letting them play cannot include tripping.
    I'm not convinced that Middlebrooks WAS trying to trip Craig. And, if that's not the case, if Craig really tripped simpy because Middlebrooks was in the way, then it sounds like the call shouldn't have been made according to that rule since it WASN'T a "very flagrant" case.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  5. #514
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    Re: World Series Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    That's not at all what happened here. The fielder did not dive for a ball and then fail to rise to his feet in order to impede the runner. The runner prevented him from rising by contacting Middlebrooks while he was attempting to get up. The runner didn't intentionally attempt to prevent the fielder from rising and the fielder didn't intentionally attempt to prevent the runner from advancing.

    Proper judgment says "Play On!" from that point. But then, Jim Joyce hasn't exactly ever been the epitome of 'proper judgment".
    Middlebrooks didn't have the ball to make a play but was on the base path.

    The shoe fits.


  6. #515
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    Re: World Series Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    Again, him raising his legs didn't matter. The act of him lying between Craig and home plate is what caused the obstruction.
    I know and I agree. But this wrinkle has been injected into the debate that in a situation like that, the umps should just let the players play. I don't agree with that. But I particularly don't agree with that if it was intentional.

    Again, why did Middlebrooks raise his legs twice? Lay on the ground on your stomach and then try to get ups. Do you raise your legs? Maybe. Do you do it twice? No way.
    ". . . acquiring J. Blanton from Oakland for, apparently, Bailey/Cueto, Votto and a lesser prospect. I do it in a second . . . The Reds' equation this year is simple: Make Matt Belisle your #3 starter . . . trade for Blanton, win 85 or more, be in the mix all summer." - Paul Daugherty, Feb. 8, 2008

  7. #516
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: World Series Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    I read the bolded part multiple times. I came to a different conclusion. Anytime it uses the word "likely", that makes it hard to say that it's clear and obvious. It says impeding the progress of the runner, but it says nothing as to the path the runner is taking. i don't take the absence of that to mean that it just doesn't matter. It's poorly worded for the very situation that happened. The rule is not written to address what happened.
    You should take the absence to mean that it doesn't matter. And the rule is written to address what happened.

    BTW, what is your level of expertise that we should believe your interpretation of what happened instead of a man who has been umping MLB games for 27 years?

  8. #517
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    Re: World Series Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I was rooting for the Cardinals.

    Why should the Red Sox suffer because Craig choose to run an inside slant instead of directly toward home plate?
    The rule book allows Craig to run wherever he wants to run as long as he is not avoiding a tag.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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  10. #518
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    Re: World Series Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by SporkLover View Post
    He's allowed to make the play but he's still not allowed to impede the runner without the ball. That's why fielders tend to position themselves near the bases that will allow them to make the catch without blocking the base paths.
    He wasn't blocking the base path. With Craig's liberal interpretation of the base path, there is zero opportunity to field that ball without being in jeopardy of obstruction. The game was over when he tried to catch the ball, and if that's a rule, it's a crying shame.

  11. #519
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: World Series Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    You should take the absence to mean that it doesn't matter. And the rule is written to address what happened.

    BTW, what is your level of expertise that we should believe your interpretation of what happened instead of a man who has been umping MLB games for 27 years?
    That's your opinion that the rule was written to address this situation. It should have some wording around the limits of "progress of the runner" as now it's turned into the "spirit" of the law.

    You really didn't need to go there on your second paragraph. Appeal to authority is not compelling to me, nor should it be. It's an oft used logical fallacy. I'm simply having a conversation about what happened on the field. when 100% of all experts agree on everything, then you can play the "what's your level of expertise" card. We're just a bunch of schmucks on an internet board just sharing observations. Besides, you haven't shared your level of expertise that we should believe your interpretation that the absence of comment on the basepath means it doesn't matter?
    Last edited by MWM; 10-27-2013 at 01:48 AM.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  12. #520
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    Re: World Series Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    The rule book allows Craig to run wherever he wants to run as long as he is not avoiding a tag.
    Does it state this anywhere in the rule book? If it does, then that would make it an easy call. I just haven't seen that explicitly in what's been posted on the rules.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  13. #521
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    Re: World Series Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    He wasn't blocking the base path. With Craig's liberal interpretation of the base path, there is zero opportunity to field that ball without being in jeopardy of obstruction. The game was over when he tried to catch the ball, and if that's a rule, it's a crying shame.
    Let's be fair. Craig was not standing up when he got to 3rd. It's not as if he were standing straight up and then decided to make a dash for Middlebrooks when he could have run outside the baseline. He stood up exactly where his feet stopped after his slide, looked towards where the ball went on the over throw and then headed for home. He was on the inside of the base because of his slide not because of crazy running decisions. When he turned for home, Middlebrooks was in the way.

    Again...sucky way to lose a game but it was not an awful call. It was the right one by the book. Perhaps an awful rule.

  14. #522
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    Re: World Series Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by SporkLover View Post
    Middlebrooks didn't have the ball to make a play but was on the base path.

    The shoe fits.
    Both players have a right to be where they were. The third baseman has a right to make a play on the ball; which he did. The action of making a play on the ball caused him to fall toward the 2nd base side of the bag. As he attempted to rise, he was contacted by a runner who was attempting to acquire the next base. The fielder did not intentionally lay his body in front of the runner to prevent advancement.

    The contact was incidental; part and parcel to playing the game as it's intended. Terrible judgment on the umpire's part.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

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  16. #523
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    Re: World Series Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    The rule book allows Craig to run wherever he wants to run as long as he is not avoiding a tag.
    So there's zero responsibility to not take the obstructed path? I honestly don't know how you even enforce that. Why aren't players taking a big turn on singles and bee lining into the first basemen every time? Free base apparently.

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  18. #524
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    Re: World Series Discussion

    [QUOTE=MWM;2996771We're just a bunch of schmucks on an internet board just sharing observations. Besides, you haven't shared your level of expertise that we should believe your interpretation that the absence of comment on the basepath means it doesn't matter?[/QUOTE]

    Im Joe Torre. It was the right call.

  19. #525
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: World Series Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    You really didn't need to go there. Appeal to authority is not compelling to me, nor should it be. It's an oft used logical fallacy. I'm simply having a conversation about what happened on the field. when 100% of all experts agree on everything, then you can play the "what's your level of expertise" card. We're just a bunch of schmucks on an internet board just sharing observations.
    I defy you to find an experienced umpire that disagrees with this call. All 6 umpires were interviewed after the game. They said it was a black-and-white, cut-and-dried call. Joe Torre was interviewed after the game. He quoted the rule book and said it was the obvious, correct call.

    The only disagreement I see is on this message board, mainly by those who are unfamiliar with the rule.

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