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Thread: Choo

  1. #31
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by BungleBengals View Post
    Also, Pablo is a switch hitter hitting in pitcher friendly ballpark.

    Pablo's weight problem can be easily fixed. Frazier's plate approach, not so much.
    If we look at last year, basically Sandoval had .030 more OBP than Frazier, but worse defense. Sure, Sandoval might bounce back, might get in shape, and might get a boost from the GAB, but is that worth paying another 6-8 million for (with less years)? Seems very risky. If we're going to gamble on a bounceback candidate, I'd rather pull Phillips off the trading block and hope his hand was the reason he had a back second half.

    I agree, it's unlikely Frasier will ever be a high OBP guy, but an .030 edge is only reaching base 18 more times over 600 ABs.. The defense Frazier gives is worth that hit.
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  3. #32
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    If we look at last year, basically Sandoval had .030 more OBP than Frazier, but worse defense. Sure, Sandoval might bounce back, might get in shape, and might get a boost from the GAB, but is that worth paying another 6-8 million for (with less years)? Seems very risky. If we're going to gamble on a bounceback candidate, I'd rather pull Phillips off the trading block and hope his hand was the reason he had a back second half.

    I agree, it's unlikely Frasier will ever be a high OBP guy, but an .030 edge is only reaching base 18 more times over 600 ABs.. The defense Frazier gives is worth that hit.
    Sandoval had a 119 OPS+. Frazier had a 96 OPS+.

    I'd submit that it isn't Sandoval who needs to "bounce back."

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    Old school 1983 (10-25-2013)

  5. #33
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    Frazier in 2012: .273 .331 .498 .829

    Last time Sandoval had an OPS over .789: 2011.

    Anyone thinking Sandoval is going to bounce back to his 2011 form after being GENEROUSLY listed at 240 this year (WTH?) is dreaming. http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...-weight-again/

    262 at 3B.

    I just don't see the point of weakening the defense to put the better defender in a position where defense is not as important. Again, you upgrade LF by getting a LF.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  6. #34
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Frazier in 2012: .273 .331 .498 .829

    Last time Sandoval had an OPS over .789: 2011.

    Anyone thinking Sandoval is going to bounce back to his 2011 form after being GENEROUSLY listed at 240 this year (WTH?) is dreaming. http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...-weight-again/

    262 at 3B.

    I just don't see the point of weakening the defense to put the better defender in a position where defense is not as important. Again, you upgrade LF by getting a LF.
    Until Frazier's supporters truly address his offensive fall off in 2013, I'm not persuaded he should be a starting player on a top team.

    As noted, Frazier's ground ball rate rose dramatically and his line drive rate was one of the lowest on the team.

    IMO the league figured out Frazier last year.

    I see no reason to assume he will revert to 2012 numbers unless he alters his swing/approach.

    Sandoval is simply a better hitter. The Reds have a number of weak hitting positions, they won't get better unless they improve a few of them.

    If the Reds said that they have a meaningful plan to change Frazier's swing/approach, I would listen. I like his defense; he has power and can be effective, but something in his swing/approach needs to change.

    Otherwise, I think they have to consider a change at the position, or a platoon, or something.
    Last edited by Kc61; 10-25-2013 at 11:05 AM.

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    Old school 1983 (10-25-2013), SidneySlicker (10-25-2013)

  8. #35
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    Re: Choo

    Before 2013 Frazier had 534 career ab's in the bigs. I've always thought that it wasn't that unusual for players to struggle when they have some experience but still have a lot of inexperience too.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  9. #36
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Until Frazier's supporters truly address his offensive fall off in 2013, I'm not persuaded he should be a starting player on a top team.

    As noted, Frazier's ground ball rate rose dramatically and his line drive rate was one of the lowest on the team.

    IMO the league figured out Frazier last year.

    I see no reason to assume he will revert to 2012 numbers unless he alters his swing/approach.

    Sandoval is simply a better hitter. The Reds have a number of weak hitting positions, they won't get better unless they improve a few of them.

    If the Reds said that they have a meaningful plan to change Frazier's swing/approach, I would listen. I like his defense; he has power and can be effective, but something in his swing/approach needs to change.

    Otherwise, I think they have to consider a change at the position, or a platoon, or something.
    The difference between the two was 20 singles. That's it. I don't want the reds paying 8 million for 20 extra singles.
    Suck it up cupcake.

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    REDREAD (10-28-2013)

  11. #37
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    The difference between the two was 20 singles. That's it. I don't want the reds paying 8 million for 20 extra singles.
    And about 50 strikeouts.

  12. #38
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    Re: Choo

    You can have all the defense you want, but the truth of the matter is: how important is it really? You can have GG'ers at every position yet it is not going to matter because more likely than not, especially at GABP, the opposing team is going to hit a HR or two in a game.

    If you take a hit on defense and add offense then I would think your team gains a lot more from that. Honestly, how many defensive plays does a GG'er make a game than an average or below average fielder? Maybe 1 or 2 plays? How many of those plays save a run? Maybe 1 a game if the other team threatens enough.

    Now think about adding Pablo to the lineup. You are adding a power hitting threat to a lineup where he is going to get 4 or 5 ABs a game.

    By comparison, both Pablo and Frazier got a little over 300 chances to field balls and both got over 580 PAs.

    Again, I think if something is worked out where you can acquire Pablo with either sending away money or getting some in return, then I think that you do it. He can play 3B adequately and Frazier becomes a utility guy who can get everyday playing time in OF, 3B, 2B, and 1B. As well as being great off the bench.
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  13. #39
    malingered here too long malcontent's Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    The Giants aren't going to give Sandoval away. He's a fan favorite, for one thing. Who would go to SF in exchange?
    Everything is perfect, but there is a lot of room for improvement. --- Shunryu Suzuki-roshi

  14. #40
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by SidneySlicker View Post
    And about 50 strikeouts.
    irrelevant. it's the singles that matter. Sandoval may not have k'd 50 extra times, but he only reached base 19 more times.

    19 times over 24 weeks. 3 fewer walks, 22 more singles.

    8 million for 19 times reaching 1B. And here is the kicker. Frazier scored more runs. 11 more in fact. Seing as how he had 8 more XBH's that sounds about right.

    8 million for 19 more times on base. No thanks.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  15. #41
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by BungleBengals View Post
    You can have all the defense you want, but the truth of the matter is: how important is it really? You can have GG'ers at every position yet it is not going to matter because more likely than not, especially at GABP, the opposing team is going to hit a HR or two in a game.

    If you take a hit on defense and add offense then I would think your team gains a lot more from that. Honestly, how many defensive plays does a GG'er make a game than an average or below average fielder? Maybe 1 or 2 plays? How many of those plays save a run? Maybe 1 a game if the other team threatens enough.

    Now think about adding Pablo to the lineup. You are adding a power hitting threat to a lineup where he is going to get 4 or 5 ABs a game.

    By comparison, both Pablo and Frazier got a little over 300 chances to field balls and both got over 580 PAs.

    Again, I think if something is worked out where you can acquire Pablo with either sending away money or getting some in return, then I think that you do it. He can play 3B adequately and Frazier becomes a utility guy who can get everyday playing time in OF, 3B, 2B, and 1B. As well as being great off the bench.
    So much wrong with this. Defense doesn't matter? at 3B?

    If that's the case, why isn't EE still a Red? And I love Encarnacion. very good hitter, better than Frazier and Panda. But no team will put him at 3B.

    Frazier is one season removed from being 3rd in the ROY ballot with an .821 OPS. Panda is two seasons removed from a .900 OPS and is 60 pounds heavier.

    Getting a LF is a better idea. If that's Choo because Hamilton shows he's ready in ST, then that's the way to go.
    Suck it up cupcake.

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  17. #42
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    Re: Choo

    Not saying we should go out and get Sandoval, but it's not like Frazier is a great fielder either. Average at best over there.

  18. #43
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by fielder's choice View Post
    Not saying we should go out and get Sandoval, but it's not like Frazier is a great fielder either. Average at best over there.
    Actually, he's above average. Sandoval however is a butcher.
    Suck it up cupcake.

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    marcshoe (10-25-2013)

  20. #44
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by fielder's choice View Post
    Not saying we should go out and get Sandoval, but it's not like Frazier is a great fielder either. Average at best over there.
    UZR says top five or six in the game, and I believe it. He's not Machado, but definitely above average IMO.

  21. #45
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    So much wrong with this. Defense doesn't matter? at 3B?

    If that's the case, why isn't EE still a Red? And I love Encarnacion. very good hitter, better than Frazier and Panda. But no team will put him at 3B.

    Frazier is one season removed from being 3rd in the ROY ballot with an .821 OPS. Panda is two seasons removed from a .900 OPS and is 60 pounds heavier.

    Getting a LF is a better idea. If that's Choo because Hamilton shows he's ready in ST, then that's the way to go.
    A LF instead of 3B? This sounds like the Reds are one hitter away. IMO they need to upgrade multiple positions offensively.

    And I still don't see anyone suggesting that Frazier's spike in grounders or low line drive rate were a fluke or can be expected to change next year. If so, then why?

    Sandoval is a lifetime .827 OPS player over six MLB seasons. Despite his fall off he still had an OPS+ 23 points better than Frazier.


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