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Thread: Choo

  1. #166
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyInTheBank View Post
    I'm not saying leave Frazier alone. Not at all. I'm saying if you are basing a platoon on a repeat of last season, then should you really be looking for an outright replacement?
    Again, then you're talking major cost in money and talent to find one. The Reds have neither to spare. If they did, we just sign Choo, Ellsbury and trade for Tulo and not worry about the other spots. Frazier's .782 OPS against LHP was more than adequate. If he could do the same against RHP, that would be one of the top five offensive 3B in the NL as opposed to one of the bottom few which is what the production last year was. Add his defense and he'd be an all star who makes the minimum. If he could only repeat last year while adding a LH Bat who is more productive against RHP, the position would be a clear strength on the cheap and that is what the team needs. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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  4. #167
    Member kpresidente's Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Again, then you're talking major cost in money and talent to find one. The Reds have neither to spare. If they did, we just sign Choo, Ellsbury and trade for Tulo and not worry about the other spots. Frazier's .782 OPS against LHP was more than adequate. If he could do the same against RHP, that would be one of the top five offensive 3B in the NL as opposed to one of the bottom few which is what the production last year was.
    But if a guy can put up a .780 OPS against RH pitchers and can match Frazier's glove, why wouldn't other teams see him as a starter even if he does struggle against RH pitching? That's probably a 2-win player full time. I don't think that player's going to come cheap. They probably had similar ideas about using Hannahan that way but obviously he stunk.
    Last edited by kpresidente; 10-30-2013 at 01:30 AM.

  5. #168
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    Well you're right if it's a young player, but there are a couple journeyman with that profile who just can't play every day who wouldn't bust the budget. Eric Chavez would be the top choice and he played 2013 on a one year $3 Million deal. Even if the Reds had to double that, it could make 3B very productive by limiting Frazier's exposure to the tougher RHP a couple times per week and wouldn't bust the budget. Another name who hits well against RHP but can't play every day is Wilson Betemit. He was hurt most of last season and his defense isn't great, but he has hit well against RHP throughout his career and could spot in a couple times per week against RHP to add production. I'm sure there are a couple other guys.

    I don't think Hannahan is the best choice, but if the Reds are stuck with him, they should probably spot him in a couple times per week and hope for the best. Against RHP in small doses, he'd probably still be more productive than Frazier. He had a better OBP vs RHP in 2013 though it wasn't really good. I'd look for an upgrade and you are right, the population of guys who would fit is pretty small.
    Last edited by mth123; 10-30-2013 at 06:22 AM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  6. #169
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Again, then you're talking major cost in money and talent to find one. The Reds have neither to spare. If they did, we just sign Choo, Ellsbury and trade for Tulo and not worry about the other spots. Frazier's .782 OPS against LHP was more than adequate. If he could do the same against RHP, that would be one of the top five offensive 3B in the NL as opposed to one of the bottom few which is what the production last year was. Add his defense and he'd be an all star who makes the minimum. If he could only repeat last year while adding a LH Bat who is more productive against RHP, the position would be a clear strength on the cheap and that is what the team needs. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
    Now you are just going to extremes... why not just sign all the top free agents!

    Instead of looking to beat my point with a club, try to understand. As you've said before, most pitchers are right handed. If you are looking for a guy to hit right handed pitching, you are looking for a starter to be supplemented by Frazier (if you expect a repeat of last season), not the other way around.

    We will have to agree to disagree on whether that player would come "cheaply" (relative to the Reds budget) because I happen to agree with kpresidente

  7. #170
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyInTheBank View Post
    Here's my issue with platooning Frazier...

    If we are going off of 2013 numbers, he wasn't particularly good at hitting lefties either. Better than righties, but...

    .236/.311/.471 isn't great. The slugging percentage is pretty good but as a whole it is nothing to write home about.
    There were 2 3B in the NL last year with a better OPS than .782. If Frazier could do that for a whole season, my Mom will hear about it.

  8. #171
    Member BungleBengals's Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    It was only two minutes long if you have two minutes to spare. But if you don't:

    * Basically they're not shopping Brandon and that was a media created thing, but did note that they'll shop Brandon or anyone else if it's the right thing to do to improve the club

    * He advocates for Chapman to go to the rotation and he and Bryan Price will sit down after they finalize the staff and talk about that

    * Bronson being a free agent could impact whether they use Chapman in the rotation; slipped and said a spot is now open (implying they would not re-sign him), but quickly corrected himself to say something like 'if he leaves'

    * Said they are a small market but Bob wants to win and will stretch it to the limit if they have to do so

    * They want to re-sign Choo but they are discussing all sorts of options based on whether he stays or goes
    This is very telling to me. We are a small market team that is doing well in terms of revenue and we have a billionaire owner. We have been speculating that the Reds cannot afford Choo and cannot afford this person or that person. But this quote alone tells me that Castellini is not afraid to spend money to win. I do not think that he is going to spend so much that the Reds are 'in the red' but I think that he is not afraid to eat into the profits a bit to bring home a winner. Can't wait to see what happens after the WS ends. This is going to be a very interesting and hopefully reassuring offseason for the Reds. Multiple possible FAs and plenty of trade opportunities as well to go along with a very strong, young core of players on a 90 win team.
    2015 Attendance 2-1 (4/6, 4/7,4/24)
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  10. #172
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    Re: Choo

    This is going to be a very interesting and hopefully reassuring offseason for the Reds.
    Interesting, yes. Reassuring, I don't think so. They are going to sacrifice some talent along the way.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  11. #173
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Frazier was indeed 14th in OPS among qualified third baseman, but there were only 19 of them. He was 14 of 19 of qualified third baseman. That's not average.

    Cozart was indeed 13th in OPS among qualified shortstops, but there were only 17 of them. He was 13 of 17 qualified shortstops. That's not average.

    Limiting the universe to qualified players is problematic because some teams platoon, or rotate, or have injured starters. So many teams man these positions with guys having too few PAs to qualify.

    But based on the qualified players, using OPS, both Frazier and Cozart were well below average.
    True, but what about teams like the Cubs.
    They patched together Luis Valbuena/Cody Ransom/Donnie Murphy
    at 3b. That combo is worse than Frazier.

    We have seen seasons where guys like XPaul and Heisey were given spot starts and excelled in OPS. I don't think most people would rank those guys ahead of LF that played everyday..

    Cozart and Frazier are also plus defenders. Sure, I know we started off using OPS, but if other clubs are platooning poor defenders (or giving them spot starts) at 3b, that shrinks the pool of true upgrades. Also, both players are cheap on a team with little financial room.

    If the Reds can find an upgrade at one of those positions, that's great.
    I wouldn't want to blow all our payflex on Sandoval or some other guy that's a marginal improvement at best. I just don't see how the Reds could bring in an impact bat at one of those positions like Tulo or David Wright, but maybe I'm wrong. Seems like the best case scenerio offensively would be to trade for a guy like Cleveland's Caberera and cross our fingers he has a big year in his last year before FA, but I question how much of an impact that would truly make in 2014, and Cleveland isn't going to give him away.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for bringing winning baseball back to Cincy

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

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  13. #174
    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    I think Frazier will definitely be the opening day 3B next season.

  14. #175
    Member Old school 1983's Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    I think Frazier will definitely be the opening day 3B next season.
    If that's the case let's hope there's a significant upgrade made at another position.

  15. #176
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    I think Frazier will definitely be the opening day 3B next season.
    I doubt Walt Jocketty knows the answer on that issue right now.

  16. #177
    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I doubt Walt Jocketty knows the answer on that issue right now.
    Frazier is not nearly as weak of a player as the majority of people seem to think (including myself most of the regular season). After the season ended I took a step back and looked at his stats and he was serviceable offensively and very good defensively. He has good pop (51 XBH) and a decent OPS. He is a top 3 defensive 3B in the NL. I think there are multiple other positions that need to be looked at before 3B, and I think Walt knows that.

  17. #178
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    Frazier is not nearly as weak of a player as the majority of people seem to think (including myself most of the regular season). After the season ended I took a step back and looked at his stats and he was serviceable offensively and very good defensively. He has good pop (51 XBH) and a decent OPS. He is a top 3 defensive 3B in the NL. I think there are multiple other positions that need to be looked at before 3B, and I think Walt knows that.
    I would modify this statement. I think there are multiple positions that need to be looked at INCLUDING 3B. Depending on who is obtainable, third base is on the table.

    Everybody seems to have a favorite position or player who shouldn't be touched. Mesoraco and Frazier are two particular ones. Folks would move Cozart, but of course SS is the weakest hitting position so it's the toughest to replace.

    Nothing should be off the table except for Votto and Bruce. Other clubs would even put THEM on the table, but I'm not suggesting that.

    The Reds need more hitting depth in the lineup. Period. Frazier cannot be untouchable.

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  19. #179
    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    If you are expecting Walt to completely overhaul the team outside of a few players, don't hold your breath.

    Frazier is really cheap and serviceable. He is not a favorite of mine that shouldn't be touched. I am fine with trading anyone as long as it helps the club, I am simply saying I do not think replacing Frazier is, or should be considered a priority this offseason.

  20. #180
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    Frazier is not nearly as weak of a player as the majority of people seem to think (including myself most of the regular season). After the season ended I took a step back and looked at his stats and he was serviceable offensively and very good defensively. He has good pop (51 XBH) and a decent OPS. He is a top 3 defensive 3B in the NL. I think there are multiple other positions that need to be looked at before 3B, and I think Walt knows that.
    Agree. Frazier is one of the least of this team's worries. He will OPS .720 to .760 and play solid defense. He's also a good ambassador for the team and a solid clubhouse presence on a team that needs some character to lighten things up (especially with the probable offseason trade of datdude).

    And he will do it for a minimal cost for a few years (until SMB takes the position from him).


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