Choo

[UK Reds Fan]

Guys like Frazier are similar to kids of the past and current

- Cozart, Stubbs his first few years, Hannigan, Orndrusek, etc.. They were at one time not totally pathetic but maybe were mediocre (slightly below mediocre) and are cheap. So these kinds of players help afford higher costing players while filling out the roster and at same time not be totally pathetic.

But when these same players start to cost 2M + and hit arbritation, etc.. is when they suddenly become unattractive as they eat into payroll as opposed to balancing it out. Frazier is serviceable but hitting .230 avg and obp .314 was part of the offensive problem this year. If he can't improve upon that in the next 2 years...the Reds should do him like they did Drew Stubbs...give him away and move on to next option. (Cozart falls in the exact same boat to me).

[Kc61]

I disagree with all these posts about Frazier being "one of the least of the team's worries." IMO this overlooks baseball in 2013-14 and what it takes to win.

The Red Sox and Cards excelled primarily in one area this season. Solid offensive depth. Look at their numbers. Pitching on good clubs today is very, very strong. To counter this you must have a very effective offense.

Virtually nobody develops that effective offense with a lineup full of stars. Instead you need a couple of stars and an otherwise effective lineup, with solid hitters throughout.

There are only 8 positions on an NL team that can supply offense. A guy who hits .234 BA and a .721 OPS playing a corner position cannot be a given. The Reds need to explore upgrades.

[RedTeamGo!]

Guys like Frazier are similar to kids of the past and current

- Cozart, Stubbs his first few years, Hannigan, Orndrusek, etc.. They were at one time not totally pathetic but maybe were mediocre (slightly below mediocre) and are cheap. So these kinds of players help afford higher costing players while filling out the roster and at same time not be totally pathetic.

But when these same players start to cost 2M + and hit arbritation, etc.. is when they suddenly become unattractive as they eat into payroll as opposed to balancing it out. Frazier is serviceable but hitting .230 avg and obp .314 was part of the offensive problem this year. If he can't improve upon that in the next 2 years...the Reds should do him like they did Drew Stubbs...give him away and move on to next option. (Cozart falls in the exact same boat to me).

They didn't "give Stubbs away" though, he was part of the package that brought one of the best offensive players (Choo) in MLB to the Reds. If the Reds are able to include Frazier in a trade to get one of the best 3B in the majors, I am all for it. I just think there are other priorities with this club. Namely, CF, LF, SS, and C.

[RedTeamGo!]

I disagree with all these posts about Frazier being "one of the least of the team's worries." IMO this overlooks baseball in 2013-14 and what it takes to win.

The Red Sox and Cards excelled primarily in one area this season. Solid offensive depth. Look at their numbers. Pitching on good clubs today is very, very strong. To counter this you must have a very effective offense.

Virtually nobody develops that effective offense with a lineup full of stars. Instead you need a couple of stars and an otherwise effective lineup, with solid hitters throughout.

There are only 8 positions on an NL team that can supply offense. A guy who hits .234 BA and a .721 OPS playing a corner position cannot be a given. The Reds need to explore upgrades.

Did the Red Sox not just win the world series with Jonny Gomes, David Ross, Shane Victorino and Stephen Drew in their lineup? Did I dream that?

The Red Sox won the world series because they shut the Cardinals deep offense down.

[*BaseClogger*]

I disagree with all these posts about Frazier being "one of the least of the team's worries." IMO this overlooks baseball in 2013-14 and what it takes to win.

The Red Sox and Cards excelled primarily in one area this season. Solid offensive depth. Look at their numbers. Pitching on good clubs today is very, very strong. To counter this you must have a very effective offense.

Virtually nobody develops that effective offense with a lineup full of stars. Instead you need a couple of stars and an otherwise effective lineup, with solid hitters throughout.

There are only 8 positions on an NL team that can supply offense. A guy who hits .234 BA and a .721 OPS playing a corner position cannot be a given. The Reds need to explore upgrades.

Heh, that's funny, because in 2013 Cardinals 3B had a collective .706 OPS and Red Sox 3B combined for a .683 OPS...

[*BaseClogger*]

In fact, when compared to the Cardinals, the Reds got similar production out of their outfield and 3B. The Reds had the advantage at 1B and SS, while the Cards had the advantage at C and 2B...

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Did the Red Sox not just win the world series with Jonny Gomes, David Ross, Shane Victorino and Stephen Drew in their lineup? Did I dream that?

The Red Sox won the world series because they shut the Cardinals deep offense down.

Agree and the Reds have won with Frazier. They were a 95-win caliber team the past two years with him. He is not holding the team back in any way.

It's the black hole in LF that is the most concerning for this team and I don't foresee even a healthy Ludwick (at 36) remedying that.

[*BaseClogger*]

Agree and the Reds have won with Frazier. They were a 95-win caliber team the past two years with him. He is not holding the team back in any way.

It's the black hole in LF that is the most concerning for this team and I don't foresee even a healthy Ludwick (at 36) remedying that.

Yup, when compared to league splits the Reds deficiencies were at C and in LF. The Reds have an in-house former top prospect with a high ceiling at one position and a 36 year-old to play the other. And I know which position is easier to acquire a replacement...

[westofyou]

Here are the batting lines for the two teams in the World Series, let's get past the steroid era thought that a bat is available at every position all the time

Red Sox - .211/.291/.330/.621
Cards - .224/.273/.299/.572

[Kc61]

Did the Red Sox not just win the world series with Jonny Gomes, David Ross, Shane Victorino and Stephen Drew in their lineup? Did I dream that?

The Red Sox won the world series because they shut the Cardinals deep offense down.

The Red Sox and Cards won 97 games and won several playoff rounds, culminating in a World Series.

The Red Sox had eleven players who hit for an OPS over .750 with more than 200 at bats. The Cards had six starting players (including Adams) with an OPS over .830.

The Reds had three players above .750 OPS and two players above .830.

This is the primary difference in the ballclubs.

Reds have good pitching too. Reds probably have better defense. But you cannot win in today's baseball with three hitters.

[kpresidente]

Yup, when compared to league splits the Reds deficiencies were at C and in LF. The Reds have an in-house former top prospect with a high ceiling at one position and a 36 year-old to play the other. And I know which position is easier to acquire a replacement...

I was looking at Mes and Hanigan on fangraphs and both players had low BABiP's (.263 and .216, respectively) with good LD% (21%+ for both). There has to be a lot of bad luck going on here. And both are good defenders. Maybe catcher isn't much of a concern.

[Kc61]

Here are the batting lines for the two teams in the World Series, let's get past the steroid era thought that a bat is available at every position all the time

Red Sox - .211/.291/.330/.621
Cards - .224/.273/.299/.572

IMO this is incorrect. Deep in the playoffs of any sport offensive numbers suffer because the defense (or pitching) faced is top notch. It's not the test.

The Reds Sox are proof positive that a deep lineup of hitters will be successful. You don't need 50 home run hitters. But you can't be satisfied with .234 hitters.

The Cards had six starting players above .830 OPS. The Reds had two.

If pitching and defense alone were the keys, the Reds wouldn't have been the fifth best team in the NL, they would have been better. They lacked offensive depth, plain and simple.

[Old school 1983]

I was looking at Mes and Hanigan on fangraphs and both players had low BABiP's (.263 and .216, respectively) with good LD% (21%+ for both). There has to be a lot of bad luck going on here. And both are good defenders. Maybe catcher isn't much of a concern.

I'm willing to give Mes a real chance this year. His plate approach seems decent except when he dives after pitches on the outter half if the zone and dips his shoulder. I think hanigans low babip is due to weak contact more than bad luck. He was dealing with injury, but his bat has never been great despite decent in base skills. I think it may be time to move on from hanigan especially if arroyo isn't with the team.

[kpresidente]

It's the black hole in LF that is the most concerning for this team and I don't foresee even a healthy Ludwick (at 36) remedying that.

One thing about Ludwick is that his bat might be good enough for him to have value as a DH. $8 and $9M for two years of a 2-3 win bat isn't bad, it's actually about right value-wise on the market. It's his awful defense that makes him an albatross. Maybe we can dump him to an American League team to free up the salary.

[RedTeamGo!]

IMO this is incorrect. Deep in the playoffs of any sport offensive numbers suffer because the defense (or pitching) faced is top notch. It's not the test.

The Reds Sox are proof positive that a deep lineup of hitters will be successful. You don't need 50 home run hitters. But you can't be satisfied with .234 hitters.

The Cards had six starting players above .830 OPS. The Reds had two.

If pitching and defense alone were the keys, the Reds wouldn't have been the fifth best team in the NL, they would have been better. They lacked offensive depth, plain and simple.

No one is arguing your point about the Reds needing more offense. I am arguing moving Frazier in order to improve the offense should not be the priority. There are bigger holes in the lineup than Frazier, you cannot realistically expect the Reds to completely overhaul the lineup.