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Thread: Choo

  1. #211
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitri View Post
    Another day, another jab at your displeasure with Frazier. At least you're getting creative about it.
    It's really best to post about the issues, rather than taking shots at other posters.

    And, of course, this post misstates my position entirely.

    My point -- as should be obvious -- is that, with very limited exception, no position should be immune to an upgrade.

    Doesn't have to be third base. Can be other places. But it has to be somewhere.
    Last edited by Kc61; 10-31-2013 at 04:25 PM.

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  4. #212
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    How about that he's 1 year removed from an .829 OPS and that he finished very strong? How about that he likely threw some added pressure on himself as he was replacing a guy that will probably end up in the HOF?

    Seems to me you don't give up on a guy after one bad season.
    If he were like 23 and not 28 I'd agree with you. I think he'd be a decent guy to keep around but given his age and plate approach I think he'd be better suited in a platoon or super sub role. Like KC has said repeatedly on here, and which I agree, an upgrade needs to be made if third is the place to do it, then go for it. If it's somewhere else by all means go for it there.

  5. #213
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    Re: Choo

    I keep seeing the phrase "super-sub" thrown around in relation to Frazier, but where else on the field should he really start? Occasionally in the corner OF and 1B? His bat doesn't really play in those positions. The only place where you are really getting your money's worth out of Frazier is 3B with his strong defense...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  6. #214
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    Re: Choo

    I do not want it to happen, but I am confident Frazier can play 2B.

  7. #215
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    Re: Choo

    In regards to Mesoraco...

    Thus far in his career he has MASHED lefties to a .312/.365/.472 line in 137 PAs. Righties has been BAD .199/.257/.324 in 457 PAs. 2013 was right along those lines in terms of his splits. Hanigan has been split similarly through his career but not quite so extreme.

    I'd love to get a guy like Dioner Navarro back to get the starts against RHP. I love Hanigan but There needs to be an upgrade somewhere.

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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyInTheBank View Post
    In regards to Mesoraco...

    Thus far in his career he has MASHED lefties to a .312/.365/.472 line in 137 PAs. Righties has been BAD .199/.257/.324 in 457 PAs. 2013 was right along those lines in terms of his splits. Hanigan has been split similarly through his career but not quite so extreme.

    I'd love to get a guy like Dioner Navarro back to get the starts against RHP. I love Hanigan but There needs to be an upgrade somewhere.
    Agreed. I like Pierzynski better, but Navarro instead of Hanigan is a move in the right direction.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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    Old school 1983 (11-01-2013)

  11. #217
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    I keep seeing the phrase "super-sub" thrown around in relation to Frazier, but where else on the field should he really start? Occasionally in the corner OF and 1B? His bat doesn't really play in those positions. The only place where you are really getting your money's worth out of Frazier is 3B with his strong defense...
    He shouldn't start. Hence super sub, if a better option at 3b is found. He can cover a variety of positions without a loss of power at the plate. I'll commend Frazier for his strong defensive season, but it takes a better plate to be a full time player in the majors. Given his age, I don't think there is a chance for a big improvement. I think replacing him with a better bat improves the offense and the bench in one move.

  12. #218
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    I keep seeing the phrase "super-sub" thrown around in relation to Frazier, but where else on the field should he really start? Occasionally in the corner OF and 1B? His bat doesn't really play in those positions. The only place where you are really getting your money's worth out of Frazier is 3B with his strong defense...
    If he's matched up properly his bat is plenty strong. The reason his numbers look bad is because he's over-exposed and left in there to flail against pitchers that are poor match-ups for him. I'd guess he'd still get most of his PT at 3B, but if a tandem partner could be acquired who matches up better against certain RHP, it would allow Frazier to be available for any of the other corner spots off the bench, in case of injury, when a guy clearly needs a day off or in a double switch or something.

    Even if Frazier plays strictly at 3B, he still should play less than he did in 2013 unless he makes a significant adjustment to his game. He should play against all LHP and against RH with more Fastball/Change-up stuff. He should probably stay away from guys with good breaking balls. If the Reds acquired a decent LH bat to counter that, I'd guess Frazier would OPS more in the .800 Range and the lefty would be more productive on the days Frazier sits. The overall production from the position would shoot way up.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  13. #219
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    How about that he's 1 year removed from an .829 OPS and that he finished very strong? How about that he likely threw some added pressure on himself as he was replacing a guy that will probably end up in the HOF?

    Seems to me you don't give up on a guy after one bad season.
    1. Nobody is giving up on him. It's a complete mischaracterization of what has been proposed.

    2. That 2012 OPS was accumulated in a role very similar to what has been proposed. He was limited to 465 PAs and was used in positions other than strictly 3B. When there was a poor match-up on the mound, Cairo took the bullet for him much of the time while Votto or Rolen was out.

    3. "One season" as you call it seems to be an outlier (or more likely the result of being matched-up instead of over-exposed on a daily basis). Frazier's minor league seasons (numbers posted earlier in the thread on post 105) show Frazier having a career filled with splits that dominate against LHP with struggles against RHP. He's 28 now and 2013 fits with the splits he had as a minor leaguer. The numbers are lower across the board because major league pitching is better, but the 2013 split is very similar to the splits he put up in A+, AA and AAA. I just don't think he's going to be a guy who can consistently put up seasons with an OPS north of .750 if he keeps getting 600+ PAs. Sit him in the couple hundred or so of those where the starter for the other team is a poor match-up for him and he and the position would show better results. The difference is Frazier played all the time including against the very worst match-ups (which became more common as the league adjusted to Frazier) and his numbers suffered. In 2012, those PAs went to other players and didn't suppress his numbers the way they did in 2013.

    4. The key is getting the right guy to pair with him. Get somebody who hits well against RHP, but is more of a spot player (as posted earlier, Eric Chavez is the best choice on the market IMO) and 3B would be a strong offensive position for the Reds and would strengthen the line-up. Leave it alone and it's likely another year of low .700's OPS similar to what we hope we can eek out from C, SS and CF and what we're likely to get from 2B and possibly even LF. Two productive positions simply isn't enough. Maybe you increase the production elsewhere and leave Frazier alone. Fine I suppose, but KC is spot on, production needs to be added somewhere.
    Last edited by mth123; 11-01-2013 at 06:58 AM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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  15. #220
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Agreed. I like Pierzynski better, but Navarro instead of Hanigan is a move in the right direction.
    My concerns about Pierzynski are the declining OBP (may have been some bad luck last year against RHP) and he will command a higher salary than Navarro based on reputation.

    With that said, I wouldn't be upset with him at all.

  16. #221
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyInTheBank View Post
    My concerns about Pierzynski are the declining OBP (may have been some bad luck last year against RHP) and he will command a higher salary than Navarro based on reputation.

    With that said, I wouldn't be upset with him at all.
    Valid concern. Even in a split his OBP is fairly low.

    My concern with Navarro is his entire career except for less than 350 PAs in 2012 and 2013. I fear he may turn back into a pumpkin at any time. Pierzynski seems a safer bet for 2014, but Navarro for 250 PAs against some RHP that are poor fits for Mesoraco should be better than Hanigan.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  17. #222
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    Re: Choo

    I reckon I have more faith in Jack Hannahan than others here. We already have the LHH 3B partner for Frazier under contract for 2014, Dusty just didn't use him much because he wasn't producing in 2013. With more regular playing time, I still think he can OPS .700 against those tough RHP with strong defense, giving Frazier a rest and improving the bench options that day...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  18. #223
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    I reckon I have more faith in Jack Hannahan than others here. We already have the LHH 3B partner for Frazier under contract for 2014, Dusty just didn't use him much because he wasn't producing in 2013. With more regular playing time, I still think he can OPS .700 against those tough RHP with strong defense, giving Frazier a rest and improving the bench options that day...
    Hannahan has had 8 seasons with over 100PAs and only 2 of those did he OPS over .700. Jack is not a good hitter, he is purely a gloveman. Last year - that was a down year - but not by all that much when you look at his career. Not his worst season. In 2008 in Oakland he was a regular and OPSd .647. In 2011/2012 he was playing about half the time (average just over 300 PAs per year) and his OPS? .719/.654. Hannahan fits Walt's defensive substitution mold well but he is not any answer as an offensive weapon at all. I count his 2 year deal as one of Walt's little mistakes - his penchant for multi year deals to backups and middle relievers is more irritating than helpful and is rarely necessary. There are plenty of Hannahan/Broxton types available in any given year - pick em up on one year deals and let 'em go.
    No - I am not from State Farm!

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  20. #224
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Hannahan has had 8 seasons with over 100PAs and only 2 of those did he OPS over .700. Jack is not a good hitter, he is purely a gloveman. Last year - that was a down year - but not by all that much when you look at his career. Not his worst season. In 2008 in Oakland he was a regular and OPSd .647. In 2011/2012 he was playing about half the time (average just over 300 PAs per year) and his OPS? .719/.654. Hannahan fits Walt's defensive substitution mold well but he is not any answer as an offensive weapon at all. I count his 2 year deal as one of Walt's little mistakes - his penchant for multi year deals to backups and middle relievers is more irritating than helpful and is rarely necessary. There are plenty of Hannahan/Broxton types available in any given year - pick em up on one year deals and let 'em go.
    I see your points, but I was indicating his splits against RHP more than overall. As a LHH, he does fair a little better against RHP than LHP. He also spent the majority of his career in pitchers' parks, so those numbers are going to be deflated a little.

    Either way, my point is more than he is not a worse option than Frazier against tough RHP, which is why it would make sense to rest Frazier more often and put his bat on the bench where it could be leveraged...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  21. #225
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    If he's matched up properly his bat is plenty strong. The reason his numbers look bad is because he's over-exposed and left in there to flail against pitchers that are poor match-ups for him. I'd guess he'd still get most of his PT at 3B, but if a tandem partner could be acquired who matches up better against certain RHP, it would allow Frazier to be available for any of the other corner spots off the bench, in case of injury, when a guy clearly needs a day off or in a double switch or something.

    Even if Frazier plays strictly at 3B, he still should play less than he did in 2013 unless he makes a significant adjustment to his game. He should play against all LHP and against RH with more Fastball/Change-up stuff. He should probably stay away from guys with good breaking balls. If the Reds acquired a decent LH bat to counter that, I'd guess Frazier would OPS more in the .800 Range and the lefty would be more productive on the days Frazier sits. The overall production from the position would shoot way up.
    I couldn't agree more. Get him favorable match ups and he'd probably hit well with solid D. The reds should look to find him a platoon partner or an upgrade at third so Frazier can be a super sub a la 2012.


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