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Thread: Choo

  1. #106
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    Re: Choo

    francisco was a powerful left handed bat

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  3. #107
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by junkhead View Post
    mth123, here is a question for you.

    Frazier(850 PA) vs R: .240 .316 .423 .323wOBA, 101wRC+
    Bruce(1058 PA) vs L: .234 .306 .438 .325wOBA, 99wRC+

    Is Bruce a platoon player, too?
    In defense of mth's position, it's not uncommon for lefty hitters to have some trouble with lefty pitchers. Teams let it slide because lefty/lefty matchups don't happen as frequently.

    But righty/righty matchups happen all the time. If a righty hitter has trouble hitting righty pitching, it's more of a problem because of the frequency with which these matchups occur.

    (If a lefty hitter can't hit lefties at all, then of course there would be a platoon. Bruce is not in that category.)

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  5. #108
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by BungleBengals View Post
    Scoring runs means nothing but having the people behind you. Pablo was not used to score runs, he was used more for driving them in. The Giants moved him throughout the lineup because of the injuries they were dealing with this year.

    Batting Order:

    3rd 281 PA
    4th 83 PA
    5th 100 PA
    6th 117 PA
    9th 3 PA

    2013 Giants = 3.88 runs a game
    2013 Reds = 4.31 runs a game
    Frazier in 2013

    Batting Order:

    Batting #2 64
    Batting #3 1
    Batting #4 11
    Batting #5 41
    Batting #6 399
    Batting #7 9
    Batting #9 6

    With the majority of his AB's coming with Cozart and Hanigan hitting behind him. Kinda negates your point. Frazier, compared to Sandoval has speed. Sadoval's speed can be described as glacial.
    Raisel Ghul, the Demon's Head

  6. #109
    Member BungleBengals's Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Frazier in 2013

    Batting Order:

    Batting #2 64
    Batting #3 1
    Batting #4 11
    Batting #5 41
    Batting #6 399
    Batting #7 9
    Batting #9 6

    With the majority of his AB's coming with Cozart and Hanigan hitting behind him. Kinda negates your point. Frazier, compared to Sandoval has speed. Sadoval's speed can be described as glacial.
    Whatever. Frazier is faster than Pablo, I was never arguing that. But if you want to keep the same team we had this year and hope guys like Frazier, Cozart, Mesoraco, and our pitchers all stay healthy and all perform to their potential then that is your opinion.

    But I do not want to trust my team, that is in the window of opportunity to win a WS, to the hopes of having unproven, inconsistent players perform. My thoughts are to go with guys that have been consistent so far in their careers. Choo and Pablo are those guys. We have a nice core with Votto, Bruce, Latos, Chapman, Homer, LeCure, and first half of 2013 Phillips. Adding Choo and Pablo to the mix while being able to then add in Frazier, Cozart, Mes, and Billy is a team that I think could challenge a WS title more than what we threw out there this past season.
    2015 Attendance 2-1 (4/6, 4/7,4/24)
    2014 Attendance 1-3 (3/31, 4/12, 8/14)
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  8. #110
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    whatever?

    ok. So Pablo is consistent. At what? gaining weight? having a sub .800 OPS?

    It has already been stated NUMEROUS times over the past two seasons, they have produced very similar numbers. the real difference is salary. that's it. Basically all the reds get by going after Sandoval is a larger payroll, diminished talent base and uncertainty past 2014.

    That's the kind of move teams like the Mets make.

    Ok so you want an upgrade at 3B. Is there one really available? Because Sandoval is not an upgrade. He's worse defensively, that's a fact, and in a park that suppresses HR's but is pretty nice for doubles and triples, he had fewer doubles and triples than the guy playing in a park that suppresses them. Basically you are enamored of his power potential, and I see his weight as something that has sapped that power.

    You point out that Sandoval was moved all over the order, that's why he didn't score more runs. Frazier was moved more, and had even LESS protection. Yet he scored more runs. Why? He's faster. He had more XBH's.

    It just makes zero sense to add Sandoval. His doubles out put will drop, probably more than his HR will increase. plus the runs he'll allow on defense? ugh.

    The Reds need to make upgrades that make sense. And they need the best information on how to do that.

    1. Determine the health of Phillips hand
    2. Decide if the second half Zack Cozart is the real Cozart.
    3. Is Hamilton ready?
    4. Can the Reds sign Choo?
    5. If they cannot sign Choo, Who best to replace him in LF if Hamilton is ready? (I have no faith in Ludwick)
    6. What to do with Arroyo?
    7. If Arroyo leaves or stays, does Chapman move to the rotation?
    8. Leake or Cingrani?


    On the surface, trying to get Sandoval addresses ZERO NEEDS. Choo is the priority. Plenty of FA OF's out there if he does not sign.

    Right now it looks like the Reds have 7 SP's counting Chapman for 5 spots. Arroyo is probably gone. Leaving 1 too many. No way do I want to see Cingrani at AAA this year. Package Leake to get a LF. Tyler Moore would be a nice fit. Cheap, tons of power coming off a down year. And he's a RH hitter, would add some thump to the right side.
    Raisel Ghul, the Demon's Head

  9. #111
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post

    Right now it looks like the Reds have 7 SP's counting Chapman for 5 spots. Arroyo is probably gone. Leaving 1 too many. No way do I want to see Cingrani at AAA this year. Package Leake to get a LF. Tyler Moore would be a nice fit. Cheap, tons of power coming off a down year. And he's a RH hitter, would add some thump to the right side.
    So, if I understand it, the scenario being posited here is the following group of position players:

    Votto
    Phillips if healthy
    Cozart (assuming Reds believe in his second half)
    Frazier
    Mesoraco
    Bruce
    Tyler Moore
    Choo or Hamilton

  10. #112
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by junkhead View Post
    mth123, here is a question for you.

    Frazier(850 PA) vs R: .240 .316 .423 .323wOBA, 101wRC+
    Bruce(1058 PA) vs L: .234 .306 .438 .325wOBA, 99wRC+

    Is Bruce a platoon player, too?
    I'm pretty sure he's projecting that Frazier takes the Drew Stubbs career path, whereas Bruce has improved since he came into the league. If that's true then the career totals are going to bias Frazier in a comparison. Plus, it's better to LH with a big split, since most pitchers are RH anyway.

  11. #113
    Member BungleBengals's Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    whatever?

    ok. So Pablo is consistent. At what? gaining weight? having a sub .800 OPS?

    It has already been stated NUMEROUS times over the past two seasons, they have produced very similar numbers. the real difference is salary. that's it. Basically all the reds get by going after Sandoval is a larger payroll, diminished talent base and uncertainty past 2014.

    That's the kind of move teams like the Mets make.

    Ok so you want an upgrade at 3B. Is there one really available? Because Sandoval is not an upgrade. He's worse defensively, that's a fact, and in a park that suppresses HR's but is pretty nice for doubles and triples, he had fewer doubles and triples than the guy playing in a park that suppresses them. Basically you are enamored of his power potential, and I see his weight as something that has sapped that power.

    You point out that Sandoval was moved all over the order, that's why he didn't score more runs. Frazier was moved more, and had even LESS protection. Yet he scored more runs. Why? He's faster. He had more XBH's.

    It just makes zero sense to add Sandoval. His doubles out put will drop, probably more than his HR will increase. plus the runs he'll allow on defense? ugh.

    The Reds need to make upgrades that make sense. And they need the best information on how to do that.

    1. Determine the health of Phillips hand
    2. Decide if the second half Zack Cozart is the real Cozart.
    3. Is Hamilton ready?
    4. Can the Reds sign Choo?
    5. If they cannot sign Choo, Who best to replace him in LF if Hamilton is ready? (I have no faith in Ludwick)
    6. What to do with Arroyo?
    7. If Arroyo leaves or stays, does Chapman move to the rotation?
    8. Leake or Cingrani?


    On the surface, trying to get Sandoval addresses ZERO NEEDS. Choo is the priority. Plenty of FA OF's out there if he does not sign.

    Right now it looks like the Reds have 7 SP's counting Chapman for 5 spots. Arroyo is probably gone. Leaving 1 too many. No way do I want to see Cingrani at AAA this year. Package Leake to get a LF. Tyler Moore would be a nice fit. Cheap, tons of power coming off a down year. And he's a RH hitter, would add some thump to the right side.
    Wow! You are really hung up on his weight aren't you? Every post has to mention he keeps gaining weight.

    Honestly, I never said that Pablo would be an upgrade at 3B. I have always said that he goes to third and Frazier is then used as a rotating starter in the OF and IF for guys to get days off. Adding Pablo to the lineup increases the offensive production.

    A lineup like this one is the one I had in mind:

    CF Choo
    1B Votto
    3B Sandoval
    RF Bruce
    2B Phillips
    LF Frazier
    SS Cozart
    C Mesoraco

    Also, adding Sandoval would not add to the payroll (in my scenarios). My recent trade offer was:

    Cueto ($10M in 2014, $10M in 2015)

    for

    Sandoval ($8.25M in 2014)
    Some prospects

    Overall, in this scenario, we would be saving money by making this move and still have a rotation of:

    Latos
    Bailey
    Chapman
    Leake
    Cingrani

    With the $2M saved this season from the trade, you can sign a SP to AAA in case of injury too.

    Happy?
    2015 Attendance 2-1 (4/6, 4/7,4/24)
    2014 Attendance 1-3 (3/31, 4/12, 8/14)
    2013 Attendance: 6-0 (4/3, 4/16, 4/17, 8/3, 8/21, 9/7)

  12. #114
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    Not really. I don't trade Cueto for Sandoval. Like, ever.
    Raisel Ghul, the Demon's Head

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  14. #115
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    So, if I understand it, the scenario being posited here is the following group of position players:

    Votto
    Phillips if healthy
    Cozart (assuming Reds believe in his second half)
    Frazier
    Mesoraco
    Bruce
    Tyler Moore
    Choo or Hamilton
    I trade for Moore if I can't resign Choo AND I'm confident that Hamilton is ready. If I can sign Choo and I believe Hamilton is ready, All the better. I keep Leake, let Arroyo leave and move Cingrani to the rotation.

    If they decide to put Chapman in the rotation, I let those three battle it out for two spots, with the loser going to the pen.
    Raisel Ghul, the Demon's Head

  15. #116
    Member BungleBengals's Avatar
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Not really. I don't trade Cueto for Sandoval. Like, ever.
    Cueto is due $20M over the next 2 years. Pablo is due $8M next year.

    Next year Cueto would be our 3rd, maybe 4th best SP depending on Chapman. His delivery has caused him injury all last year and both playoff games(2012 and 2013). Do you really want to be paying $10M a year on your number 3 or number 4 pitcher who has injury concerns?

    2014, you have 5 SP and could be 6 with Chapman. Extend the guys who need to be extended for 2015 and then you have Latos and Bailey making at least $15M+, Cueto making $10M, Chapman (depending on performance) making near $8-$9M, Cingrani making $1 or so, and then Leake making probably near $7M. That is near $60M tied up in SP for 6 guys with Stephenson coming up too.

    You trade Cueto and your 2015 payroll is $10M cheaper and you have Stephenson coming up at the rookie level contract.

    My trade offer was to get Pablo AND prospect(s) for Cueto. A quick look at the Giants top 20 prospects and nearly 3/4 of them were pitchers. I am sure we can get one of those guys along with Pablo to bolster an otherwise thin farm system. Heck, maybe try to get one of their 2014 or 2015 ETA pitching prospects as insurance.

    Overall, my point is that with our potential pitching coming up and the the need for payroll and offense, this trade makes sense.
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  16. #117
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    Re: Choo

    I can't buy into all these proposed lineups that end with Frazier, Cozart, Mesoraco, pitcher.

    Something has to improve from 6-8. Something.

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  18. #118
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Not really. I don't trade Cueto for Sandoval. Like, ever.
    I'd give them Homer Bailey, though.

  19. #119
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I can't buy into all these proposed lineups that end with Frazier, Cozart, Mesoraco, pitcher.

    Something has to improve from 6-8. Something.
    Well adding Sandoval ain't the answer.

    In the second half of 2013 (I use the second half because first word of Cozart's change in approach came in June, and his second half numbers weren't too bad) only 12 SS's with 200 PA's out OPS'd him. Of those 12, I see no one really available. http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting.../OPS/minpa/200

    Now at catcher, there are options. M2 mentioned McCaan. I like Navarro. And there are others.

    To be fair, Sandoval had a much better second half than Frazier at the plate. Overall it was still a wash, as he'd have to actually play 3B. I believe Frazier can be a high .700- low .800 OPS bat next year for the same reason others believe in Sandoval; because that is what he was last season.

    I'm of a mind that the third highest scoring team in the NL doesn't need a ton of tweaking offensively, but there are question marks at LF and CF because of the incertainty about Choo and Hamilton. Anything else is just a distraction.
    Raisel Ghul, the Demon's Head

  20. #120
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    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by kpresidente View Post
    I'd give them Homer Bailey, though.
    I'd send Bailey to Texas for Profar.

    no from me for Sandoval.
    Raisel Ghul, the Demon's Head


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