Turn Off Ads?
Page 8 of 19 FirstFirst ... 45678910111218 ... LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 278

Thread: Choo

  1. #106
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    492

    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    That's ridiculous. I've seen all the stats, bring 'em on. Nothing you've posted refutes Frazier's splits. The stats back up what my eyes see and that is that his power drops significantly against RHP. Frazier isn't an on base guy, if he's not hitting for power, he's really not helping that much. If his slugging drops off against RHP, that's a big problem for a player with his profile. He needs less exposure to the types of pitchers who give him trouble. It's not the worst thing in the world. He will still be a valuable player. I'd rather have him for 400 PAs at .825 OPS and let a lefty in there against the RHP that give him trouble, than have him for 700 PAs at .725 OPS for the sake of saying he's an every day player.

    Good teams have guys like him and good teams that win don't let them flounder unnecessarily. The problem isn't Frazier as much as Hannahan is a poor choice to pair with him. The Reds need a better LH bat to play 3B some of the time. Eric Chavez would be my choice but he probably wouldn't want to stray too far from the west coast. Get some one of that caliber who can play 75 games or so and let Frazier get starts in RF and 1B and some LF as well as 50% to 60% the starts at 3B.

    Here are some more stats for you to add to your collection:

    2010 in AAA -
    vs LHP 169 PAs .272/.367/.551/.918
    vs RHP 386 PAs .251/.321/.411/.731

    2009 in AA -
    vs LHP 140 PAs .320/.379/.547/.926
    vs RHP 355 PAs .279/.344/.455/.799

    2008 in A+
    vs LHP 110 PAs .370/.473/.652/1.122
    vs RHP 300 PAs .253/.320/.385/.705

    Wish all you want about Frazier, but he's been splitty since he's been in the organization. What we're seeing is no different than what he's always been. Hope he changes at age 28. I'd plan differently.
    You're right, as usual

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #107
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    378

    Re: Choo

    francisco was a powerful left handed bat

  4. #108
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    814

    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    That's ridiculous. I've seen all the stats, bring 'em on. Nothing you've posted refutes Frazier's splits. The stats back up what my eyes see and that is that his power drops significantly against RHP. Frazier isn't an on base guy, if he's not hitting for power, he's really not helping that much. If his slugging drops off against RHP, that's a big problem for a player with his profile. He needs less exposure to the types of pitchers who give him trouble. It's not the worst thing in the world. He will still be a valuable player. I'd rather have him for 400 PAs at .825 OPS and let a lefty in there against the RHP that give him trouble, than have him for 700 PAs at .725 OPS for the sake of saying he's an every day player.

    Good teams have guys like him and good teams that win don't let them flounder unnecessarily. The problem isn't Frazier as much as Hannahan is a poor choice to pair with him. The Reds need a better LH bat to play 3B some of the time. Eric Chavez would be my choice but he probably wouldn't want to stray too far from the west coast. Get some one of that caliber who can play 75 games or so and let Frazier get starts in RF and 1B and some LF as well as 50% to 60% the starts at 3B.

    Here are some more stats for you to add to your collection:

    2010 in AAA -
    vs LHP 169 PAs .272/.367/.551/.918
    vs RHP 386 PAs .251/.321/.411/.731

    2009 in AA -
    vs LHP 140 PAs .320/.379/.547/.926
    vs RHP 355 PAs .279/.344/.455/.799

    2008 in A+
    vs LHP 110 PAs .370/.473/.652/1.122
    vs RHP 300 PAs .253/.320/.385/.705

    Wish all you want about Frazier, but he's been splitty since he's been in the organization. What we're seeing is no different than what he's always been. Hope he changes at age 28. I'd plan differently.
    You really do like the platoon thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Vs. LH: 65AB, .262/.386/.323/.709 BABIP - .356
    Vs. RH: 187AB, .332/.430/.508/.938 BABIP - .377

    I think he should platoon if it can be done.
    He -> Votto

    Batters donít have their platoon splits stabilize until at least 1,000 plate appearances against each hand (around 2,000 for right-handed batters). Even 1000 or 2000 PA might not be enough.

  5. #109
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    814

    Re: Choo

    mth123, here is a question for you.

    Frazier(850 PA) vs R: .240 .316 .423 .323wOBA, 101wRC+
    Bruce(1058 PA) vs L: .234 .306 .438 .325wOBA, 99wRC+

    Is Bruce a platoon player, too?

  6. #110
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    13,175

    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by junkhead View Post
    mth123, here is a question for you.

    Frazier(850 PA) vs R: .240 .316 .423 .323wOBA, 101wRC+
    Bruce(1058 PA) vs L: .234 .306 .438 .325wOBA, 99wRC+

    Is Bruce a platoon player, too?
    In defense of mth's position, it's not uncommon for lefty hitters to have some trouble with lefty pitchers. Teams let it slide because lefty/lefty matchups don't happen as frequently.

    But righty/righty matchups happen all the time. If a righty hitter has trouble hitting righty pitching, it's more of a problem because of the frequency with which these matchups occur.

    (If a lefty hitter can't hit lefties at all, then of course there would be a platoon. Bruce is not in that category.)

  7. Likes:

    mbgrayson (10-28-2013), mth123 (10-28-2013), Redeyecat (10-28-2013)

  8. #111
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Amarillo, TX
    Posts
    13,251

    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by BungleBengals View Post
    Scoring runs means nothing but having the people behind you. Pablo was not used to score runs, he was used more for driving them in. The Giants moved him throughout the lineup because of the injuries they were dealing with this year.

    Batting Order:

    3rd 281 PA
    4th 83 PA
    5th 100 PA
    6th 117 PA
    9th 3 PA

    2013 Giants = 3.88 runs a game
    2013 Reds = 4.31 runs a game
    Frazier in 2013

    Batting Order:

    Batting #2 64
    Batting #3 1
    Batting #4 11
    Batting #5 41
    Batting #6 399
    Batting #7 9
    Batting #9 6

    With the majority of his AB's coming with Cozart and Hanigan hitting behind him. Kinda negates your point. Frazier, compared to Sandoval has speed. Sadoval's speed can be described as glacial.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  9. #112
    Member BungleBengals's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    618

    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Frazier in 2013

    Batting Order:

    Batting #2 64
    Batting #3 1
    Batting #4 11
    Batting #5 41
    Batting #6 399
    Batting #7 9
    Batting #9 6

    With the majority of his AB's coming with Cozart and Hanigan hitting behind him. Kinda negates your point. Frazier, compared to Sandoval has speed. Sadoval's speed can be described as glacial.
    Whatever. Frazier is faster than Pablo, I was never arguing that. But if you want to keep the same team we had this year and hope guys like Frazier, Cozart, Mesoraco, and our pitchers all stay healthy and all perform to their potential then that is your opinion.

    But I do not want to trust my team, that is in the window of opportunity to win a WS, to the hopes of having unproven, inconsistent players perform. My thoughts are to go with guys that have been consistent so far in their careers. Choo and Pablo are those guys. We have a nice core with Votto, Bruce, Latos, Chapman, Homer, LeCure, and first half of 2013 Phillips. Adding Choo and Pablo to the mix while being able to then add in Frazier, Cozart, Mes, and Billy is a team that I think could challenge a WS title more than what we threw out there this past season.
    2013 Attendance: 6-0
    4/3/13, 4/16/13, 4/17/13, 8/3/13, 8/21/13, 9/7/13

  10. Likes:

    joshua (10-31-2013)

  11. #113
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Amarillo, TX
    Posts
    13,251

    Re: Choo

    whatever?

    ok. So Pablo is consistent. At what? gaining weight? having a sub .800 OPS?

    It has already been stated NUMEROUS times over the past two seasons, they have produced very similar numbers. the real difference is salary. that's it. Basically all the reds get by going after Sandoval is a larger payroll, diminished talent base and uncertainty past 2014.

    That's the kind of move teams like the Mets make.

    Ok so you want an upgrade at 3B. Is there one really available? Because Sandoval is not an upgrade. He's worse defensively, that's a fact, and in a park that suppresses HR's but is pretty nice for doubles and triples, he had fewer doubles and triples than the guy playing in a park that suppresses them. Basically you are enamored of his power potential, and I see his weight as something that has sapped that power.

    You point out that Sandoval was moved all over the order, that's why he didn't score more runs. Frazier was moved more, and had even LESS protection. Yet he scored more runs. Why? He's faster. He had more XBH's.

    It just makes zero sense to add Sandoval. His doubles out put will drop, probably more than his HR will increase. plus the runs he'll allow on defense? ugh.

    The Reds need to make upgrades that make sense. And they need the best information on how to do that.

    1. Determine the health of Phillips hand
    2. Decide if the second half Zack Cozart is the real Cozart.
    3. Is Hamilton ready?
    4. Can the Reds sign Choo?
    5. If they cannot sign Choo, Who best to replace him in LF if Hamilton is ready? (I have no faith in Ludwick)
    6. What to do with Arroyo?
    7. If Arroyo leaves or stays, does Chapman move to the rotation?
    8. Leake or Cingrani?


    On the surface, trying to get Sandoval addresses ZERO NEEDS. Choo is the priority. Plenty of FA OF's out there if he does not sign.

    Right now it looks like the Reds have 7 SP's counting Chapman for 5 spots. Arroyo is probably gone. Leaving 1 too many. No way do I want to see Cingrani at AAA this year. Package Leake to get a LF. Tyler Moore would be a nice fit. Cheap, tons of power coming off a down year. And he's a RH hitter, would add some thump to the right side.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  12. #114
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    13,175

    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post

    Right now it looks like the Reds have 7 SP's counting Chapman for 5 spots. Arroyo is probably gone. Leaving 1 too many. No way do I want to see Cingrani at AAA this year. Package Leake to get a LF. Tyler Moore would be a nice fit. Cheap, tons of power coming off a down year. And he's a RH hitter, would add some thump to the right side.
    So, if I understand it, the scenario being posited here is the following group of position players:

    Votto
    Phillips if healthy
    Cozart (assuming Reds believe in his second half)
    Frazier
    Mesoraco
    Bruce
    Tyler Moore
    Choo or Hamilton

  13. #115
    Member kpresidente's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,871

    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by junkhead View Post
    mth123, here is a question for you.

    Frazier(850 PA) vs R: .240 .316 .423 .323wOBA, 101wRC+
    Bruce(1058 PA) vs L: .234 .306 .438 .325wOBA, 99wRC+

    Is Bruce a platoon player, too?
    I'm pretty sure he's projecting that Frazier takes the Drew Stubbs career path, whereas Bruce has improved since he came into the league. If that's true then the career totals are going to bias Frazier in a comparison. Plus, it's better to LH with a big split, since most pitchers are RH anyway.

  14. #116
    Member BungleBengals's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    618

    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    whatever?

    ok. So Pablo is consistent. At what? gaining weight? having a sub .800 OPS?

    It has already been stated NUMEROUS times over the past two seasons, they have produced very similar numbers. the real difference is salary. that's it. Basically all the reds get by going after Sandoval is a larger payroll, diminished talent base and uncertainty past 2014.

    That's the kind of move teams like the Mets make.

    Ok so you want an upgrade at 3B. Is there one really available? Because Sandoval is not an upgrade. He's worse defensively, that's a fact, and in a park that suppresses HR's but is pretty nice for doubles and triples, he had fewer doubles and triples than the guy playing in a park that suppresses them. Basically you are enamored of his power potential, and I see his weight as something that has sapped that power.

    You point out that Sandoval was moved all over the order, that's why he didn't score more runs. Frazier was moved more, and had even LESS protection. Yet he scored more runs. Why? He's faster. He had more XBH's.

    It just makes zero sense to add Sandoval. His doubles out put will drop, probably more than his HR will increase. plus the runs he'll allow on defense? ugh.

    The Reds need to make upgrades that make sense. And they need the best information on how to do that.

    1. Determine the health of Phillips hand
    2. Decide if the second half Zack Cozart is the real Cozart.
    3. Is Hamilton ready?
    4. Can the Reds sign Choo?
    5. If they cannot sign Choo, Who best to replace him in LF if Hamilton is ready? (I have no faith in Ludwick)
    6. What to do with Arroyo?
    7. If Arroyo leaves or stays, does Chapman move to the rotation?
    8. Leake or Cingrani?


    On the surface, trying to get Sandoval addresses ZERO NEEDS. Choo is the priority. Plenty of FA OF's out there if he does not sign.

    Right now it looks like the Reds have 7 SP's counting Chapman for 5 spots. Arroyo is probably gone. Leaving 1 too many. No way do I want to see Cingrani at AAA this year. Package Leake to get a LF. Tyler Moore would be a nice fit. Cheap, tons of power coming off a down year. And he's a RH hitter, would add some thump to the right side.
    Wow! You are really hung up on his weight aren't you? Every post has to mention he keeps gaining weight.

    Honestly, I never said that Pablo would be an upgrade at 3B. I have always said that he goes to third and Frazier is then used as a rotating starter in the OF and IF for guys to get days off. Adding Pablo to the lineup increases the offensive production.

    A lineup like this one is the one I had in mind:

    CF Choo
    1B Votto
    3B Sandoval
    RF Bruce
    2B Phillips
    LF Frazier
    SS Cozart
    C Mesoraco

    Also, adding Sandoval would not add to the payroll (in my scenarios). My recent trade offer was:

    Cueto ($10M in 2014, $10M in 2015)

    for

    Sandoval ($8.25M in 2014)
    Some prospects

    Overall, in this scenario, we would be saving money by making this move and still have a rotation of:

    Latos
    Bailey
    Chapman
    Leake
    Cingrani

    With the $2M saved this season from the trade, you can sign a SP to AAA in case of injury too.

    Happy?
    2013 Attendance: 6-0
    4/3/13, 4/16/13, 4/17/13, 8/3/13, 8/21/13, 9/7/13

  15. #117
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Amarillo, TX
    Posts
    13,251

    Re: Choo

    Not really. I don't trade Cueto for Sandoval. Like, ever.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  16. Likes:

    joshua (10-31-2013), Redeyecat (10-28-2013)

  17. #118
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Amarillo, TX
    Posts
    13,251

    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    So, if I understand it, the scenario being posited here is the following group of position players:

    Votto
    Phillips if healthy
    Cozart (assuming Reds believe in his second half)
    Frazier
    Mesoraco
    Bruce
    Tyler Moore
    Choo or Hamilton
    I trade for Moore if I can't resign Choo AND I'm confident that Hamilton is ready. If I can sign Choo and I believe Hamilton is ready, All the better. I keep Leake, let Arroyo leave and move Cingrani to the rotation.

    If they decide to put Chapman in the rotation, I let those three battle it out for two spots, with the loser going to the pen.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  18. #119
    Member BungleBengals's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    618

    Re: Choo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Not really. I don't trade Cueto for Sandoval. Like, ever.
    Cueto is due $20M over the next 2 years. Pablo is due $8M next year.

    Next year Cueto would be our 3rd, maybe 4th best SP depending on Chapman. His delivery has caused him injury all last year and both playoff games(2012 and 2013). Do you really want to be paying $10M a year on your number 3 or number 4 pitcher who has injury concerns?

    2014, you have 5 SP and could be 6 with Chapman. Extend the guys who need to be extended for 2015 and then you have Latos and Bailey making at least $15M+, Cueto making $10M, Chapman (depending on performance) making near $8-$9M, Cingrani making $1 or so, and then Leake making probably near $7M. That is near $60M tied up in SP for 6 guys with Stephenson coming up too.

    You trade Cueto and your 2015 payroll is $10M cheaper and you have Stephenson coming up at the rookie level contract.

    My trade offer was to get Pablo AND prospect(s) for Cueto. A quick look at the Giants top 20 prospects and nearly 3/4 of them were pitchers. I am sure we can get one of those guys along with Pablo to bolster an otherwise thin farm system. Heck, maybe try to get one of their 2014 or 2015 ETA pitching prospects as insurance.

    Overall, my point is that with our potential pitching coming up and the the need for payroll and offense, this trade makes sense.
    2013 Attendance: 6-0
    4/3/13, 4/16/13, 4/17/13, 8/3/13, 8/21/13, 9/7/13

  19. #120
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    13,175

    Re: Choo

    I can't buy into all these proposed lineups that end with Frazier, Cozart, Mesoraco, pitcher.

    Something has to improve from 6-8. Something.

  20. Likes:

    malcontent (10-28-2013)


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25