Joey Votto vs the Reds front office

[RedlegJake]

I don't know what to say to you guys except we just agree to disagree....completely... on this one.

[Lewdog]

Ha when I saw this it gave me a laugh as it is one of the first things that I debated about on this forum. On a serious note,

Would you rather have a guy that hits .275 but knocks in 100+ runs per year, OR
a player that hits .315 and knocks in 70 runs per year in the same spot in the lineup?

[DanielPlainview]

If Walt or the FO think there's a problem, that's certainly their prerogative. I don't know what good publicly airing those concerns is going to be. IMO Joseph's approach isn't a problem. The fact that Walt hasn't put hitters around him to compliment that approach (that discipline really) certainly isn't his fault. And the fact that Bob's paying him for hitting like it's 2010 when he hasn't hit like that since is a problem but that really isn't his fault either.

[Scotly]

I don't know what to say to you guys except we just agree to disagree....completely... on this one.

It is just an opinion. It is just we desperately needed his bat when it got close at the end of the season. I am still a little upset over our calapse. Just think we had the talent to still be playing.

[RedsBrick]

It's gonna be a looooong off season....

[SlimJim11]

Ha when I saw this it gave me a laugh as it is one of the first things that I debated about on this forum. On a serious note,

Would you rather have a guy that hits .275 but knocks in 100+ runs per year, OR
a player that hits .315 and knocks in 70 runs per year in the same spot in the lineup?

give me more info. if the .275 hitter has a .300 OBP, and the .315 has a .350 OBP, i'll take the .315 all day.


if the .275 hitter has a .360 OBP and the .315 hitter has a .325 OBP, give me the .275 hitter.


I don't care how many rbi they have.

[Old Reds Fan]

Well one thing we can agree on is that Joey wasn't the only player not coming through when the team needed him. Most, if not all, position players were not even fairly consistent all season long.

[RedsBrick]

give me more info. if the .275 hitter has a .300 OBP, and the .315 has a .350 OBP, i'll take the .315 all day.


if the .275 hitter has a .360 OBP and the .315 hitter has a .325 OBP, give me the .275 hitter.


I don't care how many rbi they have.

I'd need more info before making my choice. For example, what's the OPS of each player....what do they do with RISP...with 2 outs, those types of things.

Being "clutch" is a hard thing to measure....but it's certainly something you hope for. Can a player make it happen when the team needs it is those key situations?

2 out RBIs win championships.

[SlimJim11]

And Votto is unclutch right? Bc he was "bad" at clutch situations last year. But what about the years before when he was fantastic in clutch situations. Did Votto all of the sudden forget how to be clutch? Did he leave his clutch ice skates in Canada?


Did BP all the sudden figure out how to be good in clutch situations this late in his career?


Or is it more likely those stats have very high variance and 1 season's worth of data isn't a big enough sample size.

[RedEye]

I don't care what the numbers say. He wasn't getting the big hit at the right time. As in a "clutch" hit. Look at 2012. It seemed that every other time up he was hitting a double. This year when they needed the big hit he just couldn't seem to come through. I love Joey and hope this coming season he will hit like he did in 2012 (or better, the way he hit in 2010).

This is absolutely and utterly devoid of context.

[RedsBrick]

And Votto is unclutch right? Bc he was "bad" at clutch situations last year. But what about the years before when he was fantastic in clutch situations. Did Votto all of the sudden forget how to be clutch? Did he leave his clutch ice skates in Canada?


Did BP all the sudden figure out how to be good in clutch situations this late in his career?


Or is it more likely those stats have very high variance and 1 season's worth of data isn't a big enough sample size.

My comment had nothing to do with Votto. My comment was based on the 2 player scenerio you presented.

[SlimJim11]

My comment had nothing to do with Votto. My comment was based on the 2 player scenerio you presented.

And whether it's Votto or anybody else, hitting statistics for clutch situations can vary a great deal from season to season, which could suggest clutch has a lot more to do with luck than it does a skill.

[RedsBrick]

And whether it's Votto or anybody else, hitting statistics for clutch situations can vary a great deal from season to season, which could suggest clutch has a lot more to do with luck than it does a skill.

Disagree. STL and Boston were numbers 1 & 3 respectively in BA with runners in scoring position. I don't think it's coincidental they're playing in the WS. The Reds ranked 15th.

With RISP and two outs, the Cards still ranked 1st while the Sox ranked 8th. Cincinnati - 27th. I don't think luck has much to do with that over the course of a season.

[SlimJim11]

and STL hit .330 with RISP this year. After hitting .264 with RISP in 2012 with a lot of the same hitters on the club.

This year they hit .269 for the season as a team average vs .271 as a team average in 2012.


So I'm willing to say they just happened to have more hits fall in with RISP this year compared to other years. That is the luck part.

[Krawhitham]

And Votto is unclutch right? Bc he was "bad" at clutch situations last year. But what about the years before when he was fantastic in clutch situations. Did Votto all of the sudden forget how to be clutch? Did he leave his clutch ice skates in Canada?


Did BP all the sudden figure out how to be good in clutch situations this late in his career?


Or is it more likely those stats have very high variance and 1 season's worth of data isn't a big enough sample size.

BP racked up 19% of his Runs and 23% of his RBI on 21 PA

21 times BP hit with the bases loaded.
11 Hits
1 HR
1 2B
8 Singles
1 Walk
2 Sac
3 FC
24 RBI
15 Runs

Those 21 PA maked the difference between BP having a Bad year and a Good year

Votto only had 9 such At Bats this season, Granted Votto did not do as good this season with the bases loaded as BP did, but in the 9 At Bats Votto drove in 7 runs. It would have been nice to see what he could have done with another 12 At Bats with the bases loaded

If the Reds make Joey change his approach in any way they are crazy

Joey was 10th in AVG
Joey was 1st in OBP
Joey was 4th in OPS
Joey was 6th in WAR
Joey was 1st in Runs Created
Joey was 2nd in SECA

Yes his RBI totals were s**t this season, but giving all this other stats the RBI issue is a fluke