In DEFENSE of Brandon Phillips

[mth123]

This whole line of discussion is off base IMO. The Reds may be looking to move Phillips. If so, it's the reality that he'll be 33 in June, he and his bat both noticeably slowed in the second half, he's owed $50 Million over the next 4 years and will have 10 and 5 rights after 2014. The Reds may be re-thinking the decision to lock themselves into a declining and aging player for the next 4 seasons. Phillips will probably be productive enough in 2014 to earn his contract, but beyond that it's very realistic to foresee a player with a .650ish OPS, declining range and a remaining commitment around 33% higher than Eric Milton's entire contract or roughly the same as the last 4 seasons of Ken Griffey Jr's deal.

It would be irresponsible to do anything but consider moving him now while they still can. He's coming off of 100 RBIs and a gold glove, if some one will take the down years of his contract and allow the Reds to reallocate those funds (or even take on another poor contract with a lesser commitment) it's probably something they should think long and hard about. If they can get any return value while getting out from under, they should do it IMO.

All the stuff about his actions may have some emotions running high, but the decision to consider moving him would be no different if he was universally loved.

[MoneyInTheBank]

Nobody's saying that. You're setting up a straw man. BP's conduct was unprofessional and may have been a sign of larger problems.

I'm setting up a strawman?

I was responding to this...

I can't believe that anyone is still defending BP or criticising Trent over this nonsence. Its now very clear that there was a problem in the Red's clubhouse, that BP was a big part of that problem, that Dusty did nothing to solve that problem ( "because he wants to be so liked by everybody.” Mike Leake), and that the CTrent incident was the straw that broke the camel's back- Team totally tanked thereafter.

Time for some of these guys to put their big boy pants on and grow up.

And this...

I won't be that upset if he runs his mouth off for somebody else. The Reds are a good team that should have been better and have now collapsed two years in a row. Its pretty obvious from listening to LeCure, Leake, and Price that the clubhouse wasn't what it should have been. Time for BP, and some others, to grow up.

[PepperJack]

All the stuff about his actions may have some emotions running high, but the decision to consider moving him would be no different if he was universally loved.

While we don't know if the Reds will actually shop Phillips, or if they simply wanted to try to send him a message, to dismiss the personal side completely may be the wrong thing to do.

I agree with the earlier portion of your post. The Reds have every right to explore trades based on performance. He has posted his two lowest OPS numbers as a Red since he signed his extension. His speed, and power have taken a hit.

However, I do feel if his remarks were not said about the front office, or he hadn't shown up his manager in a public way, then it would be easier to swallow for Castellini to keep signing his checks. Teams keep players well past their prime all the time for emotional reasons that are positive of nature.

It's just that performance flaws shine brighter when the character may be blemished more than you thought.

[Mutaman]

How does "that BP was a big part of that problem" equate to
"I just think it's absurd to suggest that one player's behavior..... was the cause of a team's "collapse"?

Strawman.

[Mutaman]

However, I do feel if his remarks were not said about the front office, or he hadn't shown up his manager in a public way, then it would be easier to swallow for Castellini to keep signing his checks. Teams keep players well past their prime all the time for emotional reasons that are positive of nature.

What I can't figure is why Bob or Walt didn't publically issue an apology to Trent at the time, or "advised" BP to do so. Why did they just publicly ignore the statements? I can understand why Dusty did- Like Leake said- "He wanted everbody to like him". But I can't understand why management let it pass.

Picture Derek Jeter making similiar public comments about Joel Sherman or Mike Francesa. (As absurd or as difficult as that is to imagine). First of all the New York media would have gone absolutely nuts. Jeter's' comments would have been topic #1, 24/7 for the next week. Within a few days, somebody would have apologised. No question about it.

[MoneyInTheBank]

How does "that BP was a big part of that problem" equate to
"I just think it's absurd to suggest that one player's behavior..... was the cause of a team's "collapse"?

Strawman.

You are taking your own quotes out of context...

You left out this little beauty...

"the CTrent incident was the straw that broke the camel's back- Team totally tanked thereafter"

If that's not what you meant by your comments, say "that's not what I meant", I'll say "my bad" and everyone moves on. But don't act like I'm just making things up

[Mutaman]

You are taking your own quotes out of context...

You left out this little beauty...

"the CTrent incident was the straw that broke the camel's back- Team totally tanked thereafter"

If that's not what you meant by your comments, say "that's not what I meant", I'll say "my bad" and everyone moves on. But don't act like I'm just making things up

Fair enough. Kudos. i certainly feel like there was plenty of blame to go around and BP was not the only guy who disappointed me. I guess what I meant was that I suspect that the C Trent incident was a pretty good symbol of what was wrong. And I suspect that Bob and Walt feel the same way.

[MoneyInTheBank]

Fair enough. Kudos. i certainly feel like there was plenty of blame to go around and BP was not the only guy who disappointed me. I guess what I meant was that I suspect that the C Trent incident was a pretty good symbol of what was wrong. And I suspect that Bob and Walt feel the same way.

I happen to agree. I think that incident exemplified the locker room culture under Dusty Baker, which was the inmates running the asylum. I'm not saying it has to be a dictatorship, but hopefully Price can take a little bit of control back

[dubc47834]

Sure, it wasn't the brightest of ideas to say what he did about his and Vottos contract. The Trent debacle wasn't great either, just bad luck that it happened on camera. I would almost garauntee that another Red has gotten pissy with a member of the media when no cameras were around. After BP who will the next Red we run out of town....Joey Votto because his contract is too big? Bruce because he isn't Mickey Mantle? Dusty got ran out, BP is probly gonna get ran out. For as much as people hated losing all those years we sure are running our top talent out of town alfully fast for stupid stuff IMHO. We keep this up and in a few years it's going to be the same ol Reds as before. Hopefully it doesn't happen, but the writting in on the wall!!!

[Unassisted]

The Trent debacle wasn't great either, just bad luck that it happened on camera. I would almost garauntee that another Red has gotten pissy with a member of the media when no cameras were around.

That's an incredibly weak defense of jerkish behavior. In other words, "we don't know that other players aren't doing it, so we shouldn't care that this one is."

Hopefully, we're headed into an era where this kind of thing isn't tolerated from any employee in the Reds clubhouse, whether it's captured by a video camera, an audio recorder, or a part-time custodian's eyes and ears. If BP can't feel "respected" while being constrained to polite discourse, then BP should be given the opportunity to take his act to another team.

[dubc47834]

That's an incredibly weak defense of jerkish behavior. In other words, "we don't know that other players aren't doing it, so we shouldn't care that this one is."

Hopefully, we're headed into an era where this kind of thing isn't tolerated from any employee in the Reds clubhouse, whether it's captured by a video camera, an audio recorder, or a part-time custodian's eyes and ears. If BP can't feel "respected" while being constrained to polite discourse, then BP should be given the opportunity to take his act to another team.

I wasn't trying to defend him, just said that it was rather unlucky on his part cameras were there. I do think he coulda handled it when cameras weren't around and that he shouldn't have got personal with him also. But I do think people are blowing this out of proportion and that this isn't a huge deal, not enough to run him out of town.

[bounty37h]

What I can't figure is why Bob or Walt didn't publically issue an apology to Trent at the time, or "advised" BP to do so. Why did they just publicly ignore the statements? I can understand why Dusty did- Like Leake said- "He wanted everbody to like him". But I can't understand why management let it pass.

Picture Derek Jeter making similiar public comments about Joel Sherman or Mike Francesa. (As absurd or as difficult as that is to imagine). First of all the New York media would have gone absolutely nuts. Jeter's' comments would have been topic #1, 24/7 for the next week. Within a few days, somebody would have apologised. No question about it.

Not sure I could care less. I have little to no respect for "media"-not saying I hate them, just simply don't care at all if they are even there or not. I am a fan of the Reds, not the media.

[Hoosier Red]

He's a reporter and he made a statement in print. You're saying the statement wasn't true, but you have no evidence to support your feeling. What's
'likely" has nothing to do with it.

First, he's a columnist, not a reporter. This is important only in that there's obviously more opinion and more speculation inherent in the writing.

"But he (BP) has teammates, lots of them, who don’t appreciate his style. Who, in fact, sided with the reporter in the dustup. Think about that. Players siding with a member of the heathen media, over one of their own.' "

The 1st sentence is an obvious inference drawn by Doc. There's nothing wrong with that necessarily, I doubt a teammate would specifically state that he doesn't like Phillips' style and it's useful to have media members who are familiar with the players to know what they mean even if they don't overtly say it.

The 3rd sentence is also not a statement based on facts. Again, that doesn't make the statement incorrect, or useless, but it's simply not a factual statement.
It sets up the clubhouse as constant state of conflict between the team and media members.
This is a simplistic 2 dimensional frame of reference that sets it up as outside the norm that someone from one team would agree with someone from the other side. This frame of reference implies that any player "siding with a reporter" would only happen when the players did not like Phillips.


The 2nd sentence doesn't specify what siding with the reporter entails.
For instance,
"Brandon's a good guy, but that was kind of a jerk move."
"I like Brandon, but yeah, he shouldn't have done that."
"I understand what Brandon was upset about, but that's obviously not how we would prefer to handle the disagreement."

In my mind, all three of these statements would qualify as "siding" with the reporter, and all would take into account that these are human beings interacting and not some pawns in a gang war between players and media.

I'm not saying his statement isn't true, in fact I specifically said he may be correct in the impression he gathered. However as I said, I wouldn't take his statement as evidence of a whole lot beyond his impressions.

[Hubba]

Sure, it wasn't the brightest of ideas to say what he did about his and Vottos contract. The Trent debacle wasn't great either, just bad luck that it happened on camera. I would almost garauntee that another Red has gotten pissy with a member of the media when no cameras were around. After BP who will the next Red we run out of town....Joey Votto because his contract is too big? Bruce because he isn't Mickey Mantle? Dusty got ran out, BP is probly gonna get ran out. For as much as people hated losing all those years we sure are running our top talent out of town alfully fast for stupid stuff IMHO. We keep this up and in a few years it's going to be the same ol Reds as before. Hopefully it doesn't happen, but the writting in on the wall!!!

I must have missed something. Who did we at Redszone run out of town? Dustys firing had nothing to do with Redszone and I'm sure that Redszone will not run BP out of town, He may get traded but that will not be because of Redszone.

[Larkin Fan]

I must have missed something. Who did we at Redszone run out of town? Dustys firing had nothing to do with Redszone and I'm sure that Redszone will not run BP out of town, He may get traded but that will not be because of Redszone.

Don't underestimate the far-reaching power of SERP.