In DEFENSE of Brandon Phillips

[dubc47834]

I must have missed something. Who did we at Redszone run out of town? Dustys firing had nothing to do with Redszone and I'm sure that Redszone will not run BP out of town, He may get traded but that will not be because of Redszone.

Try reading my comment again, you will see...maybe...that I never mentioned Redszone once in there.

[Hubba]

Try reading my comment again, you will see...maybe...that I never mentioned Redszone once in there.

After BP who will the next Red we run out of town....Joey Votto because his contract is too big? Bruce because he isn't Mickey Mantle? Dusty got ran out, BP is probly gonna get ran out. For as much as people hated losing all those years we sure are running our top talent out of town alfully fast for stupid stuff IMHO.
Do you have a mouse in your pocket?
Clearly you are not referring to yourself.

[dubc47834]

After BP who will the next Red we run out of town....Joey Votto because his contract is too big? Bruce because he isn't Mickey Mantle? Dusty got ran out, BP is probly gonna get ran out. For as much as people hated losing all those years we sure are running our top talent out of town alfully fast for stupid stuff IMHO.
Do you have a mouse in your pocket?
Clearly you are not referring to yourself.

No mouse, no I'm not referring to myself, and like I said before, I didn't mention Redszone in there or was I referring to Redszone. What do I need to do to make you comprehend that a little better?

I will explain to you what I meant by that once, maybe you won't read into it this time. I meant that as a fan base, NOT REDSZONE, that Dusty was ran out, that it looks like BP will be ran out. Heck people still give Jay Bruce a hard time because he didn't turn out to be Superman. Redszone isn't the only place I get Reds related info from or discus the Reds. If I thought Redszone was running people outa town, or even had that power...LOL...then I woulda mentioned Redszone.

But this is the last I'm going over this with you because frankly I like my posting privileges.

[Mutaman]

Not sure I could care less. I have little to no respect for "media"-not saying I hate them, just simply don't care at all if they are even there or not. I am a fan of the Reds, not the media.

I think whether your a "fan" of the media in general or C. Trent in particular , is beside the point.

[Mutaman]

First, he's a columnist, not a reporter. This is important only in that there's obviously more opinion and more speculation inherent in the writing.


The 1st sentence is an obvious inference drawn by Doc. There's nothing wrong with that necessarily, I doubt a teammate would specifically state that he doesn't like Phillips' style and it's useful to have media members who are familiar with the players to know what they mean even if they don't overtly say it.

The 3rd sentence is also not a statement based on facts. Again, that doesn't make the statement incorrect, or useless, but it's simply not a factual statement.
It sets up the clubhouse as constant state of conflict between the team and media members.
This is a simplistic 2 dimensional frame of reference that sets it up as outside the norm that someone from one team would agree with someone from the other side. This frame of reference implies that any player "siding with a reporter" would only happen when the players did not like Phillips.


The 2nd sentence doesn't specify what siding with the reporter entails.
For instance,
"Brandon's a good guy, but that was kind of a jerk move."
"I like Brandon, but yeah, he shouldn't have done that."
"I understand what Brandon was upset about, but that's obviously not how we would prefer to handle the disagreement."

In my mind, all three of these statements would qualify as "siding" with the reporter, and all would take into account that these are human beings interacting and not some pawns in a gang war between players and media.

I'm not saying his statement isn't true, in fact I specifically said he may be correct in the impression he gathered. However as I said, I wouldn't take his statement as evidence of a whole lot beyond his impressions.

Fair enough. Still, if I've got Daugherty, a guy who's in the locker room and talks to the players, printing his opinion on one hand, and some guy on RZ posting that he doesn't think BP's teammates wer bothered by his comments, I think the former certainly outweighs the latter.

[Hoosier Red]

Fair enough. Still, if I've got Daugherty, a guy who's in the locker room and talks to the players, printing his opinion on one hand, and some guy on RZ posting that he doesn't think BP's teammates wer bothered by his comments, I think the former certainly outweighs the latter.

I think you're setting this up as a one side's right, one side's wrong which probably isn't the case.

I scanned quickly, but I didn't see anyone saying that they believed no teammates were bothered by the incident or that all Brandon's teammates were 100% on his side. I certainly didn't say that.

Here's a hypothesis of the situation in which everything Daugherty wrote would still be accurate. (aside from his silly Team vs Media argument)

Some teammates just don't like Brandon. Whether it's a personality conflict or some specific beef they have, they just don't like him. A number of players(including some who didn't like Brandon anyway, and some who did) didn't like the way he handled the C.Trent incident in particular. For some of these players, it's really influenced how they perceive Brandon for the worse. For some of the players, it's an unfortunate incident that he'll hopefully grow out of, but doesn't really change their opinion of him.


All that said, he may be a bad apple whom the team is better off getting rid of, I simply would look for stronger evidence than a columnist who's job it is to get some discussion going.

[MoneyInTheBank]

The front office is, or should be, smart enough to know that the great equalizer when it comes to "Fan Approval Rating" is on field production. So the question the front office will be asking themselves all winter (which will ultimately decide Phillips' fate) will be "Does BP's on field production still outweigh the 'other stuff?'"

The Reds need to decide internally when they believe the scales will tip toward 'no'. He needs to be dealt before that moment, when he still has some value.

[PepperJack]

The front office is, or should be, smart enough to know that the great equalizer when it comes to "Fan Approval Rating" is on field production. So the question the front office will be asking themselves all winter (which will ultimately decide Phillips' fate) will be "Does BP's on field production still outweigh the 'other stuff?'"

The Reds need to decide internally when they believe the scales will tip toward 'no'. He needs to be dealt before that moment, when he still has some value.

This is the last real chance they will have to trade him at any chance of good value though.

I mean, what with his 10/5 rights kicking in after the season, and the damage another season of numbers trending down would do to his value.

IF the Reds are serious about trading BP, and weren't trying to send him a message, then I would expect them to move him fast. Maybe even by the GM meetings, or Thanksgiving at the latest.

The reason I say that is because, I doubt they want a damper put on Redsfest, and ruin the positive PR vibes.

[Mutaman]

I think you're setting this up as a one side's right, one side's wrong which probably isn't the case.

I scanned quickly, but I didn't see anyone saying that they believed no teammates were bothered by the incident .

I was responding to post # 35: "I have a feeling the rest of the Reds team couldn't have cared less about CTrent's feelings..."

[Mutaman]

I simply would look for stronger evidence than a columnist who's job it is to get some discussion going.

Where are you going to find any other kind of evidence as to how individual players feel? Reasonable people may disagree about the weight of public writings by reporters or columnists, but other than direct statements made by players, its the only evidence out there that I can think of. All the rest is just speculation.

[bounty37h]

I think whether your a "fan" of the media in general or C. Trent in particular , is beside the point.

IMO it isn't, you stated you don't understand why he wasn't forced to give a public apology, I am stating as my opinion, I don't care if he does or not. I don't think it would be genuine for one thing, and I also don't think it effects the team, which is all I really care about here.

[REDREAD]

If Phillips is traded because he bad mouthed the owner, we've got much bigger problems than Phillips' talent level.

Yes.
Honestly, this reminds me of the time where Barry Larkin had the "audacity" to call out Carl Lindner for being cheap and not making a contending team.

If you are a black player in Cincinnati, I guess the expectation is that you are not allowed to speak your mind. All you are allowed to say is "Yes sir, I am so thrilled to be a Cincinnati Red".

Phillips basically said the Reds used negotiating tactics against him that he felt were unfair and not completely honest. I'm sure plenty of players feel the same way, they just haven't said it publicly.

I don't get why Phillips is crucified here. If the Reds want Phillips out and interacting with the fans media at the level he does, they are just going to have to assume that every once in awhile, he'll say something like that.
Phillips is a free spirit.. Every company has guys that speak their mind like that or occasionally lose their temper. If they are good workers, they are generally not fired. I still think CTrent was a jerk for inciting that fight, and I don't see why writers should be able to mouth off and the players have no right to answer the criticism. Phillips job up until that point was not a table setter. Phillips' job was to drive in Choo and Votto (the table setters), which he did very well until he got his hand hurt.

The Reds would be foolish to decrease the talent level of this team to "teach Phillips a lesson".. Because guess what? If Phillips is traded to Atlanta, how is that punishing him? He's just going to be laughing at how petty the Reds are.

[REDREAD]

There are also the rumors or stories of BP having a problem with the attention or special treatment he perceived Josh Hamilton of getting while he was here.
.

Kind of funny, at the time, everyone agreed that Josh H was the problem.
Now, years later, Phillips was the problem all along?
Funny how the worm turns. Before this season, everyone loved Phillips.
Sure, some people thought maybe his contract might be too much $$, but he was never accused of being a "Cancer" until now.

[REDREAD]

This whole line of discussion is off base IMO. The Reds may be looking to move Phillips. If so, it's the reality that he'll be 33 in June, he and his bat both noticeably slowed in the second half, he's owed $50 Million over the next 4 years and will have 10 and 5 rights after 2014. The Reds may be re-thinking the decision to lock themselves into a declining and aging player for the next 4 seasons. Phillips will probably be productive enough in 2014 to earn his contract, but beyond that it's very realistic to foresee a player with a .650ish OPS, declining range and a remaining commitment around 33% higher than Eric Milton's entire contract or roughly the same as the last 4 seasons of Ken Griffey Jr's deal. .

And this is a reasonable arguement.

The other side of the coin though:
2014 might be the last year of the Reds window to contend for awhile.
Homer is probably gone after 2014.
Ludwick is gone (might be good to free up the money, might be bad, depending on how Ludwick does).
Everyone else gets a lot more expensive.

So if you think 2014 might be the best chance to contend for awhile, you might want to hang on to Phillips and just eat the declining years.
Ideally, the Reds could trade Phillips and improve their chances of contending in 2014 and cut salary obligations, but that's a tall order.

Honestly,if Phillips is traded for a reclamation project like Uggla, the Reds chances of making the playoffs next year decline quite a bit. I guess I'm optimistic about Phillips getting his hand fixed over the winter and bouncing back to form. If Phillips has permanent hand damage that will hurt his career, then I'm more willing to dump him for whatever..

[PepperJack]

Kind of funny, at the time, everyone agreed that Josh H was the problem.
Now, years later, Phillips was the problem all along?
Funny how the worm turns. Before this season, everyone loved Phillips.
Sure, some people thought maybe his contract might be too much $$, but he was never accused of being a "Cancer" until now.

I was not a member at that the time, but I was a reader. My personal opinion of BP is likely on the other end of where you might think it is.

That said the rumors were made back then, they are not new. Who is/was the problem I/you will never really know. I will say that the guy needing a chaperon or getting media attention didn't seem to bother the Rangers players when they celebrated with ginger ale for him. His situation did seem to sour with Texas fans eventually though.

Also Phillips has always had a love for the spotlight, his teammates such as Bronson were the ones saying he is different behind closed doors.

As to your insinuating race plays a card in this Cincinnati, and other fan bases will turn on athletes of ANY color at the drop of a hat. Dunn, Votto, Bruce, Palmer, Maualuga, Peko could all testify to that.

Having your eyes closed to that, and claiming racism if people want to blame Phillips, or believe some of what they read or hear is bush league behavior IMO.

As to my personal feelings as a fan on Phillips, I have met him on two separate occasions, when he was just running errands, and he was as nice as you could possibly hope for him to be. He came off as a nice guy who was generous with his time.

If the team wants to trade him, they have two seasons of declining stats, and outbursts against the front office and media to use as just cause. Not to mention if the clubhouse rumors are true.