Turn Off Ads?
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 66

Thread: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

  1. #16
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    43,001

    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    I believe that if the Perez/Driessen situation existed today, everybody on RedZone would be infavour of dumping Perez and retaining Driessen.

    Sometimes mistakes are amde even though it appears to the majority to be the best choice.
    I still don't think it was that big of a mistake, 77 and 78 Reds sucked on the mound way more than on 1st base.

    Code:
    1977
    
    
    ERA                             DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE   BR/9 IP      R       N_W      N_L    
    1    Dodgers                    0.69     3.22     3.91     1.14      139       92       70   
    2    Astros                     0.37     3.54     3.91     0.48       66       85       77   
    3    Pirates                    0.30     3.61     3.91     0.86       59       93       69   
    4    Phillies                   0.21     3.71     3.91     0.38       43       89       73   
    5    Giants                     0.15     3.76     3.91     -.22        1       90       72   
    6    Mets                       0.13     3.78     3.91     0.55       37       79       83   
    7    Cardinals                  0.10     3.81     3.91     0.16       18       79       83   
    8    Expos                      -.09     4.01     3.91     0.15      -12       80       82   
    9    Cubs                       -.10     4.01     3.91     0.15      -22       92       70   
    10   Reds                       -.30     4.22     3.91     -.33      -23       79       83   
    11   Padres                     -.53     4.45     3.91    -1.37     -118       69       93   
    12   Braves                     -.95     4.87     3.91    -1.99     -189       78       84   
    
    
    1978
    
    ERA                             DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE   BR/9 IP      R       N_W      N_L    
    1    Dodgers                    0.46     3.13     3.58     0.62       70       91       71   
    2    Padres                     0.30     3.28     3.58     0.23       43       82       80   
    3    Giants                     0.28     3.30     3.58     0.58       56       82       80   
    4    Phillies                   0.25     3.33     3.58     0.99       55       89       73   
    5    Pirates                    0.16     3.42     3.58     0.20        8       91       70   
    6    Expos                      0.16     3.42     3.58     0.00       35       85       77   
    7    Cardinals                  -.01     3.59     3.58     -.06      -15       80       82   
    8    Astros                     -.05     3.63     3.58     -.08        9       78       84   
    9    Reds                       -.24     3.82     3.58     -.56      -41       82       79   
    10   Mets                       -.29     3.87     3.58     -.37      -40       77       85   
    11   Cubs                       -.48     4.06     3.58     -.64      -74       82       80   
    12   Braves                     -.52     4.10     3.58     -.91     -107       82       80

  2. Likes:

    Always Red (10-31-2013), Big Klu (10-31-2013), George Anderson (10-31-2013)

  3. Turn Off Ads?
  4. #17
    Member 757690's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dayton
    Posts
    10,988

    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    The mistake with trading Perez was the return. Fryman was a diva and Murray was a dud. Reds could have gotten an ace for Perez at that time.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  5. #18
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    43,001

    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    The mistake with trading Perez was the return. Fryman was a diva and Murray was a dud. Reds could have gotten an ace for Perez at that time.
    Fryman a diva? (A farmer from Ky who didn't start his career until he was 26)

    Check out his 1972 Tigers season when he was picked up, a great year

  6. Likes:

    traderumor (11-01-2013)

  7. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    378

    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    fryman stunk with reds and murrey was ignoble at best

  8. #20
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    4,754

    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    I believe that if the Perez/Driessen situation existed today, everybody on RedZone would be infavour of dumping Perez and retaining Driessen.

    Sometimes mistakes are amde even though it appears to the majority to be the best choice.
    Driessen actually had a very good year in 1977 hitting .300 with 17 HR's and 91 RBI's.

    Like what WOY posted the pitching was in shambles. Gullett and McEnaney were gone. Fred Norman was the only one with an ERA under 4.00. Pat Zachry and Gary Nolan only pitched in 12 and 8 games respectively I assume due to injuries. Rawley Eastwick was a complete dud from the year before and the only real bright spots to the pitching were Tom Seaver acquired midseason and Pedro Borbon who anchored down the bullpen.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  9. #21
    Member 757690's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dayton
    Posts
    10,988

    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Fryman a diva? (A farmer from Ky who didn't start his career until he was 26)

    Check out his 1972 Tigers season when he was picked up, a great year
    He refused to pitch for the Reds in 1977 and mid season quit on them, forcing the Reds to trade him in the offseason. One of the crazier baseball stories I remember from my youth.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  10. #22
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    4,754

    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    If you look at the Reds #1 draft picks from 1970-1978 you can tell there was a huge problem in the drafting department. Bob Howsam I would assume called the shots as GM in regards to the draft so needless to say his drafting was not a strong suit during this time frame. In previous years prior to 1970 he did draft Bench, Griffey, Gullett, Eastwick, Zachry, Knight and McEnaney but from 1970 on it was pretty bleak.

    This makes me wonder how did the Reds do so poorly during the era of 1970-1978 in drafting? Did ownership cut back on scouting? Did they just have bad scouts? Or did Howsam go against his scouts advice and go on what he wanted?


    BTW 1978-1982 was also pretty bleak in drafting also but I am only focusing on the Howsam years.





    1978 1 17 17 Nick Esasky (minors) SS
    1977 1 24 24 Tad Venger (minors) 3B
    1976 1 23 23 Mark King (minors) RHP
    1975 1 22 22 Tony Moretto (minors) OF
    1974 1 23 23 Steve Reed (minors) RHP
    1973 1 22 22 Bradford Kessler (minors) OF
    1972 1 7 7 Larry Payne (minors) RHP
    1971 1 24 24 Mike Miley (minors) SS
    1970 1 15 15 Gary Polczynski (minors) SS
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  11. #23
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    43,001

    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    He refused to pitch for the Reds in 1977 and mid season quit on them, forcing the Reds to trade him in the offseason. One of the crazier baseball stories I remember from my youth.
    He and Sparky didn't get along, so he retired mid season yes.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by westofyou; 10-31-2013 at 07:03 PM.

  12. #24
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Out Wayne
    Posts
    22,888

    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    If Howsam had not traded away Ross Grimsley after the 1973 season and if the Reds had not discarded Mike Caldwell in 1977, Cincinnati would have had the starting pitching to have won the 1978 NL West.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  13. #25
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Cincy West
    Posts
    5,073

    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    He and Sparky didn't get along, so he retired mid season yes.
    Yes, Fryman hated Sparky, and vice versa.

    Excellent pitching was the great secret of the BRM days. And they get very little credit for it.

  14. #26
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    378

    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    yes the great Merv Rettenmund was not worth it nor was Garry Pyka

  15. #27
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Mason, OH
    Posts
    12,266

    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Howsam returned as president of the Reds in 1983 after the disastrous 101 loss season of 1982. He brought Pete Rose back as player/manager and had a lot to do with the rebuilding of the mid-80's Reds. The farm system recovered and gave the team some chips to play with.

    You guys talk about the ought's being a suck time, you should have been around for a back-to-back 61 and 74 win seasons. No fun.

    Pay attention to the open sky

  16. Likes:

    Always Red (10-31-2013), cumberlandreds (11-01-2013), George Anderson (10-31-2013)

  17. #28
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    43,001

    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    If Howsam had not traded away Ross Grimsley after the 1973 season and if the Reds had not discarded Mike Caldwell in 1977, Cincinnati would have had the starting pitching to have won the 1978 NL West.
    Maybe, both achieved their greatest success when George Bamberger taught them the wet one

  18. Likes:

    Revering4Blue (10-31-2013)

  19. #29
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Land of the Lost
    Posts
    7,266

    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    It's not like the BRM was dismantled overnight. Many of the decisions to trade or let members of the BRM leave would have been supported by Redszone had it existed then. Perez, Rose, and Morgan were all on th north side of 35 when they left and were likely to command huge raises with the advent of Free Agency. They went and got Seaver in '77 and after 2 second place finishes in '77-78, they won the division in '79, with most of the starting position players from the BRM still there. Howsam resigned as team president in '78 and Wagner fires Sparky. Morgan is gone for the 1980 season and Geronimo lost his starting spot to Dave Collins. After finishing 3rd in 1980, they finish with the best record in baseball in 1981 with Bench, Concepcion, Griffey, and Foster still on the team. Then Wagner trades Griffey and Foster for jack squat and the Reds finish 6th in 1982. In 1983, Marge Schott buys the team and brings back Howsam as Team President and the rebuilding that leads to the 1990 World Series begins.

    Howsam didn't dismantle the Reds and Wagner did it on a gradual basis as members got older or hurt. Sure they didn't participate in free agency at the start, but they still held on to respectability and would have made the playoffs in 1981 if not for the weird split season rule because of the players' strike. The problem was that Wagner was unable to bring in players to replace departing BRM members with players of similar caliber and then dumped Foster and Griffey or little return.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

  20. Likes:

    Revering4Blue (10-31-2013)

  21. #30
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    34,514

    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    It was tough for an old school GM like Howsam to adjust to free agency. We have the benefit of almost 40 years of hindsight. Remember, Howsam was from the Branch Rickey school of GMs. Rickey always believed that you trade a player a year too soon rather than a year too late. That's probably one of the reasons he pulled the trigger on the Perez trade. He may have had trouble adjusting to the new world of baseball but he knew that the Reds weren't going to be able to keep up with the New Money ownerships. Driessen made quite a bit less than Perez and Howsam figured he could get the same production on the field.

    George made a great point about the draft. Since the Reds did so well all those years they had to draft close to the bottom. So in 71 guys like Frank Tanana, Jim Rice, Rick Rhoden and Craig Reynolds were taken. But they passed over guys like George Brett and Mike Schmidt.

    WOY and George made great points about the pitching. The best the Reds could do in the 70s draft wise were Don Gullett and Gary Nolan. It came back to bite them in the latter part of the decade. I think Sparky, for all his strengths, did not handle the starting pitching well. He could get away with it as long as he had a great bullpen. When he didn't, they had problems.

    Age was lurking as well. Morgan, Perez, Rose were all in their mid 30s or, in Morgan's case, close to it. Morgan didn't leave until he was 36. He had some good years after he left but nothing like those MVP years he had here. Rose left when he was 38. Conventional wisdom would say he had only a couple of more years left. Perez was 34 when he was traded. He had a couple of good years in MON and a very good one in BOS but after that the numbers started falling off. Point is the Reds got the best years out of those guys and out of guys like Griffey, Geronimo and Foster.

    If there hadn't been free agency, the Reds would have been able to keep all those guys. Then what? Maybe they would have won in 77 but you have to think Howsam may have tried to trade some of them because of the Rickey theory. What would have happened when these guys (save for Rose) started missing games because of injury? What would have happened when their production dropped? Remember, there were 11 other teams in the league. The Dodgers were a very good team. The Pirates and Phils were very good too. Howsam made some mistakes. I think he was too stubborn when he ignored free agency. He wouldn't adjust to the new world order but the rules basically changed in the middle of the game. One year you draft and develop talent and trade for anything else. The next year you could buy talent. I think Howsam thought it was something like a fad and free agency wouldn't last. That they would break the union and things would go back to the way they were. It was shortsighted of him. But what happened in the latter part of the 70s shouldn't take anything away from his legacy.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rally-...24872650873160

  22. Likes:

    cumberlandreds (11-01-2013), George Anderson (10-31-2013), redhawkfish (10-31-2013), REDREAD (11-08-2013), Revering4Blue (10-31-2013), Roy Tucker (11-01-2013), _Sir_Charles_ (11-02-2013)


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25