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Thread: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

  1. #31
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Gary Nolan was drafted by the Reds in 1966 and Don Gullett in 1969.
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  3. #32
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Reds had a slew of hard throwers had injuries not taken their toll. Maloney, Simpson, Gullett and Nolan all posessed blazing fastballs. Most people only remember the soft tossing curveball repertoire that Nolan had after be reinvented himself after his early arm injury. Could have been one of the All-Time great pitching staffs.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

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    Old school 1983 (11-02-2013), RedsBaron (11-01-2013)

  5. #33
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    Reds had a slew of hard throwers had injuries not taken their toll. Maloney, Simpson, Gullett and Nolan all posessed blazing fastballs. Most people only remember the soft tossing curveball repertoire that Nolan had after be reinvented himself after his early arm injury. Could have been one of the All-Time great pitching staffs.
    And all four were done by 32

    Howsam liked big hard throwers on the draft and saw them as being the prototype for pitchers, fail as a starter go into the BP.

    However they often got hurt and the junk guys didn't

  6. #34
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    Reds had a slew of hard throwers had injuries not taken their toll. Maloney, Simpson, Gullett and Nolan all posessed blazing fastballs. Most people only remember the soft tossing curveball repertoire that Nolan had after be reinvented himself after his early arm injury. Could have been one of the All-Time great pitching staffs.
    Although Tom Seaver was named the NL Rookie of the Year in 1967, Gary Nolan, who was age 18 at the start of the season, arguably was the better pitcher that season. Nolan had a lower ERA despite having Crosley Field as his home park (2.58) and struck out more hitters (206), to go with his 14-8 record.
    If Nolan, Gullett, Maloney and Simpson had all remained healthy, the Big Red Machine would not merely be regarded as one of the greatest teams ever-they would have been unquestionably the best ever.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    Revering4Blue (11-01-2013)

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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    dont forget the great year Mel Queen had as a converted outfielder

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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    Howsam traded Perez but the rest of the BRM was on Dick Wagner.

    IMO Howsam should be in Cooperstown not only for his work with the Reds but also the Cardinals.

    The Perez trade was obviously a bad one but even the greats like Howsam make mistakes. If anything led to the destruction of the BRM it was the awful drafting that took place during the 70's especially the pitching.
    THANK YOU. The Perez trade myth that it single handedly ruined the Machine is revisionist history at it's finest. In 1977 the offense scored 55 less runs than the 1976 team, but the pitching gave up 92 more runs. Pitching went south, team went south. Other than Seaver, who wasn't acquired until mid-season, the only above league average starter was Fred Norman. Gullett was gone. Billingham fell off a cliff. Nolan was washed up and traded.

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    Always Red (11-01-2013)

  11. #37
    Member cumberlandreds's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Lots of good posts in this thread. The bad thing about the Perez trade was what they lost in the clubhouse with Perez missing. Perez knew how to keep Bench's and Rose's egos in check. Probably Morgan's too. Without Perez around the clubhouse became more fractured. No, the Reds probably would not have won 1977 if Perez was there. The pitching was horrible that season. But if he had been there until the end of the decade I truly believe they would have won one more World Series either in 78 or 79.
    Reds Fan Since 1971

  12. #38
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    For one thing, there is a lot more that needs to be said by the OP with such a provocative title.

    I also think more needs to be said about free agency, whereas it is just assumed to be a positive for the game. A lot of question begging there.
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    Revering4Blue (11-01-2013)

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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilpdawg View Post
    THANK YOU. The Perez trade myth that it single handedly ruined the Machine is revisionist history at it's finest. In 1977 the offense scored 55 less runs than the 1976 team, but the pitching gave up 92 more runs. Pitching went south, team went south. Other than Seaver, who wasn't acquired until mid-season, the only above league average starter was Fred Norman. Gullett was gone. Billingham fell off a cliff. Nolan was washed up and traded.
    Em, it's not a myth. It's what the actual eight players say--all of them. They all believe that not only was Perez a stellar performer, but he was the bridge between all the different types in the clubhouse. The TEAM went south-and I don't think you can look at pitching independent of the offense. It was much harder for that staff to perform when the offense was weakened.
    "Don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself."--Winston Churchill

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    All Fired Up Revering4Blue's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelhouse View Post
    Em, it's not a myth. It's what the actual eight players say--all of them. They all believe that not only was Perez a stellar performer, but he was the bridge between all the different types in the clubhouse. The TEAM went south-and I don't think you can look at pitching independent of the offense. It was much harder for that staff to perform when the offense was weakened.
    Even so, the previous post that you quoted -- that I agree 100 per cent with -- clearly states that it is myth that the Perez trade single-handedly killed the BRM. That is the crux of the issue.

    Per another previous post, I have to agree that poor 1970's drafting -- pitching, specifically -- and the reluctance to participate in free agency, finally relenting in late '78 by heavily pursuing Tommy John, played much bigger factors in the demise of the BRM than dealing away Perez. And yes, some gawd-awful Wagner era deals helped to place the proverbial nail in the coffin.
    "I have just been more than a little suspect of all the trades since the Willy (Scott Williamson) cash grab. That one left such a bad taste in my mouth that even a 1985 Dom Pérignon couldn't cleanse it." -- Creek14

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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    Reds had a slew of hard throwers had injuries not taken their toll. Maloney, Simpson, Gullett and Nolan all posessed blazing fastballs. Most people only remember the soft tossing curveball repertoire that Nolan had after be reinvented himself after his early arm injury. Could have been one of the All-Time great pitching staffs.
    I've wondered often how that group would have fared under today's more knowledgeable medical care for pitchers. Maloney, Nolan, Simpson and Gullett were all abused incredibly by today's standards. I've never read anything referencing that by Gullett but all three of the others have been interviewed or written about the gosh awful conditions and methods they were forced to endure and that eventually ruined them. Nolan is particularly bitter. You can go a bit earlier and add Billy McCool to that list, too. He came up as a bonus baby in 64 and threw as hard as Maloney - the kid was incredibly talented and was just about ruined by 68 - when he was 23. He would have been another great arm in that BRM group had he stayed healthy. Bonus baby rules probably killed his career.
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  17. #42
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    If you look at the Reds #1 draft picks from 1970-1978 you can tell there was a huge problem in the drafting department. Bob Howsam I would assume called the shots as GM in regards to the draft so needless to say his drafting was not a strong suit during this time frame. In previous years prior to 1970 he did draft Bench, Griffey, Gullett, Eastwick, Zachry, Knight and McEnaney but from 1970 on it was pretty bleak.

    This makes me wonder how did the Reds do so poorly during the era of 1970-1978 in drafting? Did ownership cut back on scouting? Did they just have bad scouts? Or did Howsam go against his scouts advice and go on what he wanted?


    BTW 1978-1982 was also pretty bleak in drafting also but I am only focusing on the Howsam years.





    1978 1 17 17 Nick Esasky (minors) SS
    1977 1 24 24 Tad Venger (minors) 3B
    1976 1 23 23 Mark King (minors) RHP
    1975 1 22 22 Tony Moretto (minors) OF
    1974 1 23 23 Steve Reed (minors) RHP
    1973 1 22 22 Bradford Kessler (minors) OF
    1972 1 7 7 Larry Payne (minors) RHP
    1971 1 24 24 Mike Miley (minors) SS
    1970 1 15 15 Gary Polczynski (minors) SS
    I'm not arguing the point, just curious. You've only posted the 1st rounders here. Did we get any good guys in the lower rounds? I know that back then the draft was much more of a crapshoot than it is today as we knew much less about the players than we do today. But I'd be shocked if we went 8 years without any viable ML'ers.
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  18. #43
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    I'm not arguing the point, just curious. You've only posted the 1st rounders here. Did we get any good guys in the lower rounds? I know that back then the draft was much more of a crapshoot than it is today as we knew much less about the players than we do today. But I'd be shocked if we went 8 years without any viable ML'ers.
    Ron Oester, Dave Collins and Eddie Milner were really the best lower round draft picks that the Reds had in the early 70's. The 78' draft did have Frank Pastore, Mike LaCoss, Charlie Liebrandt and Gary Redus. However over the course off an 8 year I would say the drafting was pretty weak
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  19. #44
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    1970 nil until 6th round 6-Tom Carroll P 8-Will McEnaney P 10-Ray Knight 3B 19-Pat Zachry P
    1971 nil until 5th round 5-Don Werner C 7-Dave Revering 1B 23-Dave Collins OF Reds stopped picking in round 31 though it
    went to 49 rounds. Teams didn't pick every time in late rounds - lots of them figured there was no one else they were
    interested in. Tom Hume, Juan Eichelberger and Keith Hernandez were all picked after that 31st round by other teams (the
    only three of any note picked after that round by anyone)

    1972 nil. the immortal Dan DeMoulin P appeared in 5 ML games (round 21) 23-Ron Hassey 31 total rounds for Reds
    1973 (the David Clyde hysteria year) 12-Jay Howell (yeah that one) 20-Ronald Reagan OF (no he didn't make it but it was
    interesting) 34 total rounds for Reds 1 guy who pitched 1 game for the Reds before being traded to LA

    1974 - 2-Mike Grace 3B (5 games in '78 extent of his career) 3-Mike LaCoss P 5-Steve Henderson OF 9-Ron Oester 2B 10-Lynn
    Jones OF 15-Dan Norman 1B 26-John Fuller C (3 games with Braves) 35 total rounds participated

    1975 - 2-Frank Pastore P 3-Paul Moskau P 4-Scott Brown P 10-Don Welchel P 25-Bob Adams P 27-Bill Paschall P Reds only took 27 picks
    1976 - 15 of the first 23 picks of all teams made it that year. Of course, the Reds #1 pick did not. 2-Paul Householder
    7-Bill Dawley P 21-Eddie Milner OF 31-Jay Howell (pick and follow redraft) 33-Tim Laudner C 35-Scotty Madison SS 36-Pat Sheridan OF The Reds made 38 picks the most ever to that time

    1977 - 4-Joe Price P 7-Tom Foley SS 8-Tony Walker SS 35 total picks
    1978 - 1-Nick Esasky (the Reds first first round pick of the decade to make a ML roster)2-Dave VanGorder C 5-Jeff Lahti P
    9-Charlie Leibrandt P 15-Gary Redus OF 16-Skeeter Barnes 2B 17-Tom Lawless INF 19-Dave Anderson P 21-Otis Nixon OF 37 total picks

    1979 - (the Reds had 2 first round picks and neither made it) 2-Keefe Cato P 3-Bob Buchanan P 5-Jeff Russell P 12-Tom Edens OF 13-Randy Gomez C 20-Jeff Jones OF 25-Kurt Kepshire P 43 picks, most ever to that date

    In the whole decade the Reds system barely produced enough players to fill a bullpen and a bench. Knight, Zachry, Collins, LaCoss, Pastore, Price, Esasky, Milner, Redus and Jay Howell, Ron Hassey and Otis Nixon who all came up and starred elsewhere. That's it. Not a true star in the bunch. 1 first round pick made the majors. Only 5 2nd rounders and they were all marginal to adequate but hardly solid starters.

    Here's some of the players from rounds 2-10 the Red missed Fred Lynn 3/70, Rick Reuschel 3/70, Phil Garner 8/70, Rich Gossage 9/70, George Brett, Mike Schmidt 2/71; Ron Guidry 3/71, Ellis Valentine, Dennis Leonard 2/72; Dennis Eckersley, Gary Carter 3/72, Jm Sundberg 8/72; Eddie Murray 3/73, Garth Iorg 8/73; Lou Whitaker 5/75, Mike Boddicker 8/75; Alan Trammell 2/76, Dan Petry, Ricky Henderson 4/76, Ozzie SMith, Willie McGee, Wade Boggs 7/76; Tim Raines 5/77, Jesse Barfield 9/77Cal Ripken Jr 2/78, Steve Sax 9/78, Randy Johnson 11/78, Bill Doran, Harold Reynolds 6/79, Storm Davis 7/79

    To be fair the entire decade was kind of short on stars that emerged later on. Lots and lots of first rounders made it to stardom, after that there are very few - the above is pretty much it for the whole decade (for 2nd rounders and later) but the Reds draft performance was especially miserable starting with #1 on.
    Last edited by RedlegJake; 11-02-2013 at 12:54 PM.
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  20. #45
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Mario Soto?
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