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Thread: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

  1. #46
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Mario Soto?
    signed in 73 as an amateur free agent, not drafted
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  3. #47
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Any theories why the Reds drafting was bleak during the 70's?

    It was pretty good prior to the 70's so what changed?
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  4. #48
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelhouse View Post
    Em, it's not a myth. It's what the actual eight players say--all of them. They all believe that not only was Perez a stellar performer, but he was the bridge between all the different types in the clubhouse. The TEAM went south-and I don't think you can look at pitching independent of the offense. It was much harder for that staff to perform when the offense was weakened.
    The offense wasn't weakened, it was basically a push. The pitching stunk. Doug Capilla was in the rotation. Maybe the Dodgers were just better that year, which happened about half of the time during the BRM heyday. I love Tony, but Driessen is undersold as a result, and he was not a part of the problem.
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  6. #49
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    Any theories why the Reds drafting was bleak during the 70's?

    It was pretty good prior to the 70's so what changed?
    Good question. Pure speculation, but that was the era of expansion. More teams means more competition for resources. Being as successful as they were in finding and developing talent in the '60s, I wonder if they lost some of their scouting and development staff to other teams.
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  7. #50
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Driessen Perez
    77 - .843 .816
    78 - .742 .785
    79 - .744 .748
    80 - .795 .786

    DD OBP'd between .330 and .377 and slugged over .400 every year but 78 max .468
    TP OBP'd between .320 and .352 and slugged over .400 every year max .467

    Driessen gets ripped unfairly. Maybe the Reds missed Tony's leadership - I know the other players on the great 8 have said so, but Driessen hardly held them back on the field. Tony's best years were behind him.
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    Any theories why the Reds drafting was bleak during the 70's?

    It was pretty good prior to the 70's so what changed?


    Phil Seghi/Jim McLaughlin > Chief Bender/Bowen brothers

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  11. #52
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    Ron Oester, Dave Collins and Eddie Milner were really the best lower round draft picks that the Reds had in the early 70's. The 78' draft did have Frank Pastore, Mike LaCoss, Charlie Liebrandt and Gary Redus. However over the course off an 8 year I would say the drafting was pretty weak
    Dave Collins was drafted by the Angels...
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  12. #53
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    Dave Collins was drafted by the Angels...
    He was also drafted by the Reds...all that draft and follow stuff...Reds in 71, Angels in 72...he elected not to sign with Cincy. Since there drafts stink so bad I give em credit for at least recognizing his talent
    Last edited by RedlegJake; 11-02-2013 at 02:44 PM.
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  14. #54
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    Any theories why the Reds drafting was bleak during the 70's?

    It was pretty good prior to the 70's so what changed?
    Reds were picking at the end of the draft those years, due to always being one of the best teams in the league. Not much available at that part of the draft. Similar to the Cardinals poor results from their drafts in the early 00's.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Reds were picking at the end of the draft those years, due to always being one of the best teams in the league. Not much available at that part of the draft. Similar to the Cardinals poor results from their drafts in the early 00's.
    If you look at bottom of post #44 you will see all the players the Reds missed out on drafting. I think it had pretty much everything to do with poor scouting.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    If you look at bottom of post #44 you will see all the players the Reds missed out on drafting. I think it had pretty much everything to do with poor scouting.
    You could make a similar list for every team over any stretch of time. All those players were passed on by every other team, most many times. Clearly there was something about them that made teams not want to draft them in the first round.

    With all drafts, once you get past the first ten picks or so, it's pretty much a crap shoot, with worse and worse odds with each descending pick.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  17. #57
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    You could make a similar list for every team over any stretch of time. All those players were passed on by every other team, most many times. Clearly there was something about them that made teams not want to draft them in the first round.

    With all drafts, once you get past the first ten picks or so, it's pretty much a crap shoot, with worse and worse odds with each descending pick.
    True but I still think the Reds poor drafts were a result of poor scouting rather than where they picked in the draft. The MLB draft isn't the same as the NBA or NFL draft.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  18. #58
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Phil Seghi/Jim McLaughlin > Chief Bender/Bowen brothers
    Don't tell that to Indians' fans. Terry Pluto pretty much blames Seghi and Gabe Paul for the Indians' misfortunes from the late '60s through the '80s. That being said, Paul and Seghi did a great job building up the Reds' farm system in the '50s and '60s.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

  19. #59
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    You could make a similar list for every team over any stretch of time. All those players were passed on by every other team, most many times. Clearly there was something about them that made teams not want to draft them in the first round.

    With all drafts, once you get past the first ten picks or so, it's pretty much a crap shoot, with worse and worse odds with each descending pick.
    If you look at those drafts in detail year by year (and I did in creating that list) you will see my point isn't that the Reds missed those guys particularly but that they were just very inept overall in drafting those years. Lots of good ballplayers were to be had and the Reds came away with fewer than just about anyone else in those years - only 1 #1 that made it, only #5 #2s and they weren't that good. Few teams in that decade seemed as lousy at drafting when you look year by year at all ten years.
    No - I am not from State Farm!

  20. #60
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Howsam: the great and horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    The offense wasn't weakened, it was basically a push. The pitching stunk. Doug Capilla was in the rotation. Maybe the Dodgers were just better that year, which happened about half of the time during the BRM heyday. I love Tony, but Driessen is undersold as a result, and he was not a part of the problem.
    Another point to be made that while I agree it was a push offensively between Perez and Driessen, defensively Driessen was far superior. I would guess Tony was a better clutch hitter and added more to the clubhouse chemistry than Driessen but I really don't think it matters because like you said, Doug Capilla was in the starting rotation. That speaks volumes for how bad the pitching was.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard


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