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Thread: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

  1. #16
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    he didn't fail a test, he'll get in 1st ballot
    Two of the teams he managed were both ground zero for steroids. He might not have failed a test, but I wouldn't be surprised if he helped his players pass a few that they should have failed. Honestly, mention two words: Steroids and Manager. The first name that pops into every baseball fans head is Tony LaRussa.
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  3. #17
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Looking at numbers, I'm a bit underwhelmed with most of the candidates. I've championed Tommy John for years, but honestly, he really doesn't belong. Torre and Parker are both in the same ballpark, and, imho, might be the most qualified, although I guess Torre would be going as a manager. I apologize for not saying Davey, but I just don't see it.

    My first thought was that Parker would be the first of the old Charleston Charlies that I watched growing up to make it, but then a horrible thought occurred to me: so would tony LaRussa.

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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Garvey is a first ballot candidate for the Horndog Hall of Fame. I remember it was quite shocking when his romantic affairs became public. While affairs were nothing new with regard to ballplayers, Garvey was such a surprise because of the "Mr. Clean" image he'd cultivated.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    I was just looking at the JAWS HOF ratings numbers. By no means should it be taken as a definitive guide, but it's got some interesting names at the top of the list. I'll list the top guys not in the HOF in various categories and I'll note when guys aren't better than the average HOFer according to JAWS (in most cases the guys listed will be above the HOF average).

    Catcher

    Best vet off the main ballot - Joe Torre, played more catcher than any other position, ranks between Yogi Berra and Bill Dickey

    Best guy on the ballot - Mike Piazza, without specific steroids charges he should get in

    Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Ivan Rodriguez, JAWS has him rated #3 all-time behind the plate, behind only Johnny Bench and Gary Carter

    Top active player - Joe Mauer, who should climb above the HOF average in the next year or two

    First Base

    Best vet off the main ballot - Keith Hernandez, below the HOF average at 1B, but still a strong candidate

    Best guy on the ballot - Jeff Bagwell, that acne-pocked neck of his has proven problematic

    Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Frank Thomas, should be an automatic

    Top active player - Albert Pujols, poised to surge past XX next season

    Second Base

    Best vet off the main ballot - Bobby Grich, it would be if the world grasped the obvious in his lifetime

    Best guy on the ballot - Craig Biggio, below the HOF average, solidifying my personal take that he's one of the more overrated players of modern times (behind Lou Whitaker, who got dropped without remorse)

    Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Jeff Kent, who ranks below Willie Randolph (not in) and above Billy Herman (in)

    Top active player - Chase Utley, who ranks just ahead of Biggio

    Shortstop

    Best vet off the main ballot - Bill Dahlen, given the way they inducted almost every old timey SS who managed to play for more than a decade, Dahlen's exclusion is bizarre

    Best guy on the ballot - Alan Trammell, there's no good argument against him

    Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Nomar Garciaparra, below the HOF SS average and a bit short on counting stats

    Top active guy - A-Rod, though he's perilously close to jumping to the 3B list, at which time Derek Jeter takes the top spot here

    Third Base

    Best vet off the main ballot - Graig Nettles, above average and seriously overlooked

    Best guy on the ballot - Edgar Martinez, who's really a DH, but there's no other 3B worth mentioning on the active ballot

    Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Chipper Jones, slam dunk selection (and let's not forget about Scott Rolen too, since he's above the HOF average too)

    Top active guy - Adrian Beltre, JAWS says he's already got the resume

    Left Field

    Best vet off the main ballot - Sherry Magee, below average, but he's got a strong case (there's also that Pete Rose guy, but he's ineligible)

    Best guy on the ballot - Barry Bonds, and if you prefer a non-steroids candidate it's Tim Raines, who needs to be elected already

    Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Is Manny Ramirez retired?

    Top active guy - Matt Holliday, about to get passed by Ryan Braun, both have a long way to go for real HOF consideration

    Center Field

    Best vet off the main ballot - Kenny Lofton, criminally dropped in his first year of eligibility, ranks #9 all-time on the JAWS list

    Best guy on the ballot - Bernie Williams, ranks low on JAWS

    Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Ken Griffey Jr., comes in at #5 right between the Mick and Joe D

    Top active guy - Carlos Beltran, another good year and he'll climb above average

    Right Field

    Best vet off the main ballot - Dwight Evans, below average, but ahead of plenty of the mean (Shoeless Joe ranks higher, but he's ineligible)

    Best guy on the ballot - Larry Walker, I keep thinking the world is going to wake up on Walker being painfully obvious

    Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Bob Abreu, ranks just ahead of Vlad Guerrero, with Dave Winfield sandwiched between them

    Top active guy - Ichiro, likely never climbing above average

    Starting Pitcher

    Best vet off the main ballot - Wes Ferrell, below average, 4.04 career ERA, still ranks surprisingly high, there's some 19th century guys ahead of him, but I refuse to count those guys

    Best guy on the ballot - Roger Clemens, #2 all-time, if you prefer someone not tainted by steroids it's Curt Schilling (and he's above the HOF average too)

    Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Randy Johnson/Greg Maddux in a dead heat (Pedro, Mussina and Glavine all above average too)

    Top active guy - Roy Halladay, JAWS loves him

    Relief Pitcher

    Best vet off the main ballot - Bobby Shantz, below average, but #5 on the JAWS list

    Best guy on the ballot - Lee Smith, however he is down at #14 on JAWS, which does not like pure closers

    Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Mariano Rivera, only the Eck (who pitched 2,000 more innings) ranks ahead of him, prior to last month Tom Gordon ranked as the top guy here (at #6)

    Top active guy - Joe Nathan, who actually ranks ahead of both Billy Wagner and Trevor Hoffman (leading me to question how well JAWS applies to relievers)
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  8. #20
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    C Ted Simmons: (1968-88) Simmons HOF candidacy was always hurt by the fact that his career largely occurred during what can now be considered a Golden Age of catchers. In the 1970′s and into the í80′s, there was no shortage of World Class catchers: Johnny Bench, Carlton Fisk, Thurman Munson, Gene Tenace, Bob Boone, Darrell Porter, Jim Sundberg and Gary Carter, among others, each donned the so-called tools of ignorance. Ted Simmons had a fine career, but was overshadowed by some of these other catchers.

    Still, B-R ranks Ted Simmons as the 10th best catcher of all-time. Simmons was an underrated defensive catcher, though no match for several of the others Iíve listed above. But more to the point, Simmons was a catcher who could really hit. Here are his batting averages from 1971-80: .304, .303, .310, .272, .332, .291, .318, .287, .283, and .303.

    After switching leagues at age 31, leaving the Cardinals for the Brewers, Simmons caught fewer and fewer games every year, becoming increasingly a 1B / DH.

    Despite the competition at his position and in his league, Simmons was named to eight All Star teams in his career. Only one catcher, Pudge Rodriguez, has ever hit more career doubles than Simmonsí total of 483, and his 1,389 RBI is also the second highest total of all time by a player whose primary position was catcher, surpassed only by Yogi Berra.

    Strangely, Ted Simmons was only on the BBWAA HOF ballot for just one year, 1994, in which he received just 3.7% of the vote. Looking back nearly 20 years later, itís difficult to understand how Simmons could garner such little support for such an excellent career.

    Thus, Ted Simmons remains the best catcher not in the Hall of Fame. (Apologies to Joe Torre, my second choice.)


    http://ondeckcircle.wordpress.com/tag/ted-simmons/



    Before Ivan Rodriguez came along, that's exactly where Ted Simmons ranked among the hit leaders for catchers. First (he's now second). Can you imagine the all time leader in hits for a catcher debuting on the ballot and failing to collect the 5% to stay on the ballot? It's actually pretty insane.

    Simmons is also second to Rodriguez in doubles (meaning he was #1 all time when he retired), second to Yogi Berra in RBI, fifth in extra-base hits, sixth in runs scored, and 11th in home runs (among catchers). He was an 8-time All Star. He finished in the top ten in batting average six times, hits four times, doubles eight times, and RBI six times. Again, the traditional numbers seem to set him up perfectly for induction


    http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/201...-5-ted-simmons






    Here are the all-time Runs Created leaders among catchers:



    Player Career Runs Created
    Mike Piazza 1,378
    Carlton Fisk 1,378 Hall of Fame
    Ted Simmons 1,283
    Yogi Berra 1,265 Hall of Fame
    Joe Torre 1,259
    Johnny Bench 1,239 Hall of Fame
    Gary Carter 1,184 Hall of Fame
    Bill Dickey 1,164 Hall of Fame
    Gabby Hartnett 1,161 Hall of Fame
    Jason Kendall 1,112


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  9. #21
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    I'm a big hall guy. I think John, Garvey, Simmons and Concepcion should all be in. I'd vote no on Quiz and Parker.

    All 6 of the Managers and execs should be in.


    If I had to vote for one of each group, I'd go with Tommy John and Marvin Miller.
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  11. #22
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    My guess is that one, two or all three of the managerial trio of Torre, LaRussa and Cox are selected; Torre probably has the best chance, and all three merit induction.
    Billy Martin certainly had an interesting managerial career but I am not convinced that he is HOF worthy.
    I doubt that any of the players are selected. Simmons probably is the most deserving of the six, while Garvey is probably the least qualified. There are certainly worse players in the HOF than this group of six. I'd love to see Davey selected but if Alan Trammell isn't HOF worthy it is hard for me to argue that Concepcion should be inducted.
    I have no idea if Marvin Miller will finally go in.
    Steinbrenner? No.
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  12. #23
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Tommy John was able to play major league baseball for 26 years. He did this in spite of missing an entire season with what, up until he came along, was a career ending injury 12 years into his career. His resolve and commitment allowed him to come back and play another 14 seasons after his "career ending" injury, No doubt Dr. Jobe was the star of that scenario, but that surgery may not have been successful with a lesser patient.

    26 seasons in the big leagues is crazy. He should be in the hall for that alone. Add that he was a pretty darned effective pitcher and a trailblazer in a procedure that changed baseball history, and I don't see how he can't be in. I know there are other pitchers with similar numbers who have no chance, but if they can hang around for 26 years, I'd vote for them too.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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  14. #24
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    I place Tommy John with another lefty, his contemporary, Jim Kaat. John won 288 games and pitched 26 years, with an ERA+ of 111. Kaat won 283 games and pitched 25 years, with an ERA+ of 108. They probably should either both be in the HOF or neither should be.
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Tommy John should be in just because of the surgery. When he came back from that he was better than ever too. Frank Jobe should get a mention on John's plack too.
    Concepcion was a great SS. I have always said if he played in NYC he would have been an automatic selection. I think he will get in with Morgan on the committee.
    The committee should vote Marvin Miller in. Miller made most of those guys millions of dollars by heading the union.
    Simmons was a great hitter and pretty good defensive catcher. He played on some poor Cardinal teams that hurt him originally. He should get the nod too.
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Garvey is a first ballot candidate for the Horndog Hall of Fame. I remember it was quite shocking when his romantic affairs became public. While affairs were nothing new with regard to ballplayers, Garvey was such a surprise because of the "Mr. Clean" image he'd cultivated.
    I knew Garvey was a fake when he played with the Mr. Clean Cut Guy image he had. He proved he was a fake after he retired. He was the original Shawn Kemp.
    Reds Fan Since 1971

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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by cumberlandreds View Post
    I knew Garvey was a fake when he played with the Mr. Clean Cut Guy image he had. He proved he was a fake after he retired. He was the original Shawn Kemp.
    The scandals of Garvey fathering kids by multiple women broke around the same time as Pete Rose's gambling was revealed. I can remember one joke to the effect that Rose bet on The Breeders Cup and Garvey won it.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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  19. #28
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    My guess is that one, two or all three of the managerial trio of Torre, LaRussa and Cox are selected; Torre probably has the best chance, and all three merit induction.
    Billy Martin certainly had an interesting managerial career but I am not convinced that he is HOF worthy.
    I doubt that any of the players are selected. Simmons probably is the most deserving of the six, while Garvey is probably the least qualified. There are certainly worse players in the HOF than this group of six. I'd love to see Davey selected but if Alan Trammell isn't HOF worthy it is hard for me to argue that Concepcion should be inducted.
    I have no idea if Marvin Miller will finally go in.
    Steinbrenner? No.
    I'd like to see Concepcion in the Hall, and I think Trammell should be in as well. Both were considered to be among the best SS of their eras. I think maybe if Concepcion gets in, it might help Trammell's lot with the Baseball Writers.

    Personally I don't get the whole notion that the Baseball Hall of Fame should be some ueberexclusive club where only the best of the best should be enshrined. It's a museum, not Valhalla. I feel the Baseball Hall of Fame risks becoming the most talked about museum no one ever visits. If that's the goal, fine. Don't change a thing and we can have some more years where hardly anyone gets inducted. However, if they want people to actually come out to the Hall of Fame, bring the kids, and see some baseball history, they should be more to recognize the players from the '70s, '80s, and '90s. That's the era that most parents with children grew up watching and the most likely group to plan a family trip around a visit to theHall of Fame.

    Maybe I'm biased because I live 40 minutes north of the Pro Football Hall of Fame, but I think they do it right. Any fan nominate a player for consideration as long as they have a connection to pro football and they've been retired for 5 years. No rules about falling off the ballot for not getting the minimum vote percentage or being on the ballot 15 years. Now a selection committee will weed out the unworthy, but you still get a healthy number of players up for vote. Then the writers are required to elect between 4 and 7 players each year. Come Hall of Fame Weekend, every year is a huge deal where families travel from all over the country descend on Canton with a parade and tailgating and a sold out Hall of Fame Game. And the museum itself is designed with fans of all ages in mind. One of my youngest football memories was going to the Hall with my Aunt and watching NFL Football Follies in their movie theater. They have all kinds of exhibits geared toward kids, and even in the off-season the place has parents bringing their kids to check it out. And the gift shop has all kinds of stuff for every team. It truly is a place designed with fans in mind.

    On the other hand, I took my wife and young boys to the Baseball Hall of Fame about 6 years ago and, while I found it great as a student of baseball history, my family didn't share my interest. It was somewhat elitist and boring compared to the Pro Football Hall. And most of the other visitors were in the 55+ crowd. Even most of the restaurants in town were geared toward either the elderly tour bus crowd or the well healed couples. And of course the gift shop was all about NY (Yankees, Brooklyn Dodgers, Giants, Mets) and Boston. The whole place was like Ken Burns' baseball documentary in living form, interesting to those who like baseball history and the older crowd for nostalgic reasons, boring as all get out to everyone else.

    Therefore, I say let all these guys in.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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  21. #29
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    I found Yachtzee's comparison between Cooperstown and Canton to be interesting. I made my first visit to Coooperstown in late June of 2012. I visited the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton several years ago.
    I wasn't as impressed as Yachtzee by the Pro Football Hall of Fame, which is close by an interstate. I found its location to be lacking in "atmosphere," with no sense of stepping back through the "portals of time" to a "bygone era". This isn't a criticism of the museum itself, just the location.
    Keeping in mind that I am an old guy (58), I was blown away by the location of the Baseball Hall of Fame, nestled in Cooperstown and the gorgeous Finger Lakes area of New York. I really did feel as if I had become part of a Norman Rockwell painting come to life.
    As for the voting procedure, while I am not crazy about the football committee which gets to vote on candidates, since it appears susceptible to allowing media members to "blackball" certain players, I do like the fact that every year several people will be inducted, including living, breathing people.
    I wonder if the Baseball HOF even needs to have a committee considering the pre-integration, pre-1946 era. There probably is one or two players who still deserve to be enshrined, and as long as team owners are eligible I thought it was about time Jacob Ruppert finally made it, but I think it is fair to say that just about anyone who truly had a good case for the HOF who played before 1946 has been enshrined, and anyone else from that era is probably dead and unable to enjoy the honor anyway.
    I assume it drove the Baseball HOF management nuts this year to have an induction weekend without a single living inductee to be honored.
    Of course, if the Baseball HOF adopted the voting procedures of the Football HOF in full, then would that mean that players who bet on the game would be eligible for enshrinement as was the case with Paul Hornung? If so, then I can think of one candidate who would benefit (it is a RedsZone rule that any HOF discussion has to eventually mention Peter Edward Rose ).
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  22. #30
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    I found Yachtzee's comparison between Cooperstown and Canton to be interesting. I made my first visit to Coooperstown in late June of 2012. I visited the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton several years ago.
    I wasn't as impressed as Yachtzee by the Pro Football Hall of Fame, which is close by an interstate. I found its location to be lacking in "atmosphere," with no sense of stepping back through the "portals of time" to a "bygone era". This isn't a criticism of the museum itself, just the location.
    Keeping in mind that I am an old guy (58), I was blown away by the location of the Baseball Hall of Fame, nestled in Cooperstown and the gorgeous Finger Lakes area of New York. I really did feel as if I had become part of a Norman Rockwell painting come to life.
    As for the voting procedure, while I am not crazy about the football committee which gets to vote on candidates, since it appears susceptible to allowing media members to "blackball" certain players, I do like the fact that every year several people will be inducted, including living, breathing people.
    I wonder if the Baseball HOF even needs to have a committee considering the pre-integration, pre-1946 era. There probably is one or two players who still deserve to be enshrined, and as long as team owners are eligible I thought it was about time Jacob Ruppert finally made it, but I think it is fair to say that just about anyone who truly had a good case for the HOF who played before 1946 has been enshrined, and anyone else from that era is probably dead and unable to enjoy the honor anyway.
    I assume it drove the Baseball HOF management nuts this year to have an induction weekend without a single living inductee to be honored.
    Of course, if the Baseball HOF adopted the voting procedures of the Football HOF in full, then would that mean that players who bet on the game would be eligible for enshrinement as was the case with Paul Hornung? If so, then I can think of one candidate who would benefit (it is a RedsZone rule that any HOF discussion has to eventually mention Peter Edward Rose ).
    Funny you should mention the atmosphere around the respective Halls of Fame. In a way, where they are located is pretty much perfect based on where the roots of the professional game were for each respective sport. Pro Baseball got its start as the gentlemanly amateur clubs of the 1850s started paying better players in the 1860s. We generally think of early baseball in a more pastoral setting. Meanwhile, pro football teams got their start often using factory or railroad workers (where you'd find the biggest, strongest dudes before the days of nutrition and weight training). Games were often played on fields next to the factory or railyard so that players could practice on their lunch breaks. So to put the Football Hall of Fame in Canton, the old factory town that gave birth to the NFL makes sense in that regard.

    Of course that is really not the point I was trying to make. What makes the Football Hall of Fame great, regardless of location, is that it appeals to fans of all ages, which is where I think the Baseball Hall of Fame is lacking. Considering we have a thread about how kids aren't watching baseball as much anymore, I think the problems I mentioned with the Baseball Hall of Fame are symptoms that indicate that MLB is out of touch with the younger generations. Celebrating old-timey baseball is all fine and good, but I think you also need to give more credence to the modern era. Most people alive today weren't around in the time of the Brooklyn Dodgers and NY Giants and most adults have their first memories of baseball coming in the years of multipurpose stadia with astroturf fields. No offense, but I think the Baseball Hall of Fame should probably stop catering to the nostalgia of the Baby-boom generation and start looking at how to attract the younger generations and their kids if it wants to remain a popular tourist destination.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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