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Thread: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

  1. #31
    OlafTheBlack Dan's Avatar
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    The only argument I can see in favor of Concepcion is that he invented, or at least was the first one to use consistently, the bounce throw off the astroturf to first base. I'm a believer that even if numbers don't necessarily warrant it, the game's innovators and pioneers deserve special consideration.

    Whether the throw employed by Davey can be considered hall-worthy is a debate worth having, though.
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  3. #32
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    Of course, if the Baseball HOF adopted the voting procedures of the Football HOF in full, then would that mean that players who bet on the game would be eligible for enshrinement as was the case with Paul Hornung? If so, then I can think of one candidate who would benefit (it is a RedsZone rule that any HOF discussion has to eventually mention Peter Edward Rose ).
    The difference is that Hornung (and Alex Karras) was only suspended for a year then reinstated. Pro football has never had a Black Sox scandal in their past so they never had any ineligible players when it came time to have a hall of fame.
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  4. #33
    Member klw's Avatar
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame


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  5. #34
    Knowledge Is Good Big Klu's Avatar
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    The only argument I can see in favor of Concepcion is that he invented, or at least was the first one to use consistently, the bounce throw off the astroturf to first base. I'm a believer that even if numbers don't necessarily warrant it, the game's innovators and pioneers deserve special consideration.
    Dave Concepcion was the standard by which the shortstop position was measured for about 10 years (1972-82). I've always believed that how a player measures up vs. his peers should carry weight in HOF consideration. For a ten-year span, there was not a better all-around SS than Davey.
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  7. #35
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Klu View Post
    Dave Concepcion was the standard by which the shortstop position was measured for about 10 years (1972-82). I've always believed that how a player measures up vs. his peers should carry weight in HOF consideration. For a ten-year span, there was not a better all-around SS than Davey.
    Code:
    CAREER
    1972-1982
    SS
    RUNS CREATED/GAME vs. the league average (SS) 
    
    
    OPS                             OPS     RC/G      PA     
    1    Roy Smalley                .736     1.25     4197   Rangers/Twins/Yankees
    2    Robin Yount                .735     1.29     5257   Brewers
    3    Garry Templeton            .725     0.94     3715   Cardinals/Padres
    4    Dave Concepcion            .711     1.02     6304   Reds
    5    Rick Burleson              .690     0.60     5034   Red Sox/Angels
    6    Chris Speier               .682     0.67     5953   Giants/Expos
    7    Bill Russell               .656     0.25     6021   Dodgers
    8    Ivan DeJesus               .654     0.41     4030   Dodgers/Cubs/Phillies
    9    Don Kessinger              .639     0.30     4133   Cubs/Cardinals/White Sox
    10   Larry Bowa                 .631     0.21     6629   Phillies/Cubs
    Fielding Runs Above Average

    Code:
    CAREER
    1972-1982
    SS
    
    FRAA                           FRAA    
    1    Mark Belanger               126   Orioles/Dodgers
    2    Dave Concepcion              98   Reds
    3    Ozzie Smith                  73   Padres/Cardinals
    4    Bill Russell                 72   Dodgers
    5    Bert Campaneris              68   A's/Rangers/Angels
    6    Garry Templeton              57   Cardinals/Padres
    7    Bucky Dent                   56   White Sox/Yankees/Rangers
    8    Rick Burleson                48   Red Sox/Angels
    9    Chris Speier                 35   Giants/Expos
    10   Tim Foli                     33   Expos/Giants/Mets/Pirates/Angels

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  9. #36
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Funny you should mention the atmosphere around the respective Halls of Fame. In a way, where they are located is pretty much perfect based on where the roots of the professional game were for each respective sport. Pro Baseball got its start as the gentlemanly amateur clubs of the 1850s started paying better players in the 1860s. We generally think of early baseball in a more pastoral setting. Meanwhile, pro football teams got their start often using factory or railroad workers (where you'd find the biggest, strongest dudes before the days of nutrition and weight training). Games were often played on fields next to the factory or railyard so that players could practice on their lunch breaks. So to put the Football Hall of Fame in Canton, the old factory town that gave birth to the NFL makes sense in that regard.

    Of course that is really not the point I was trying to make. What makes the Football Hall of Fame great, regardless of location, is that it appeals to fans of all ages, which is where I think the Baseball Hall of Fame is lacking. Considering we have a thread about how kids aren't watching baseball as much anymore, I think the problems I mentioned with the Baseball Hall of Fame are symptoms that indicate that MLB is out of touch with the younger generations. Celebrating old-timey baseball is all fine and good, but I think you also need to give more credence to the modern era. Most people alive today weren't around in the time of the Brooklyn Dodgers and NY Giants and most adults have their first memories of baseball coming in the years of multipurpose stadia with astroturf fields. No offense, but I think the Baseball Hall of Fame should probably stop catering to the nostalgia of the Baby-boom generation and start looking at how to attract the younger generations and their kids if it wants to remain a popular tourist destination.
    I think you make some good points.
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  10. #37
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Great posts Yachtzee and RedsBaron.

    HOF members by decade in which they started their career (additional Negro Leaguers in parens):

    1980s - 8
    1970s - 15
    1960s - 21
    1950s - 21
    1940s - 16
    1930s - 20 (7)
    1920s - 32 (8)
    1910s - 22 (5)
    1900s - 16 (4)
    1890s - 22 (1)
    1880s - 14 (1)
    1870s - 10

    So MLB has expanded and it's become significantly tougher to make the HOF. Cooperstown is making itself obsolete. My cursory count for NFL players who started their careers in the 1980s who've made it to Canton is 37.
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  11. #38
    Member kheidg-'s Avatar
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    I place Tommy John with another lefty, his contemporary, Jim Kaat. John won 288 games and pitched 26 years, with an ERA+ of 111. Kaat won 283 games and pitched 25 years, with an ERA+ of 108. They probably should either both be in the HOF or neither should be.
    While I don't have an argument against Tommy John - I couldn't disagree more.

    Jim Kaat had 16 gold glove awards including 13 straight. This is a record for a pitcher. He is second in total to only Maddux and his 18.

    Tommy John didn't have a single gold glove award.

    And, Kaat, in his 14-season prime, from 1962-75, he started 480 games, appeared in 524, went 225-163 and produced a 3.21 ERA.

  12. #39
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Code:
    BATTERS FACED                   BFP    
    1    Cy Young                  30058   Spiders/Cardinals/Red Sox/Indians/Braves
    2    Pud Galvin                25234   Bisons/Alleghenys/Pirates/Burghers/Pirates/Cardinals
    3    Walter Johnson            23749   Senators
    4    Phil Niekro               22677   Braves/Yankees/Indians/Blue Jays/Braves
    5    Nolan Ryan                22575   Mets/Angels/Astros/Rangers
    6    Gaylord Perry             21953   Giants/Indians/Rangers/Padres/Rangers/Yankees/Braves/Mariners/Royals
    7    Steve Carlton             21683   Cardinals/Phillies/Giants/White Sox/Indians/Twins
    8    Don Sutton                21631   Dodgers/Astros/Brewers/A's/Angels/Dodgers
    9    Warren Spahn              21547   Braves/Mets/Giants
    10   Kid Nichols               21243   Braves/Cardinals/Phillies
    11   Tim Keefe                 20975   Trojans/Metropolitians/Giants/Phillies
    12   Grover C Alexander        20928   Phillies/Cubs/Cardinals/Phillies
    13   Bert Blyleven             20491   Twins/Rangers/Pirates/Indians/Twins/Angels
    14   Greg Maddux               20421   Cubs/Braves/Cubs/Dodgers/Padres/Dodgers
    15   Roger Clemens             20240   Red Sox/Blue Jays/Yankees/Astros/Yankees
    16   Tommy John                19692   Indians/White Sox/Dodgers/Yankees/Angels/A's/Yankees
    17   Early Wynn                19408   Senators/Indians/White Sox/Indians
    18   Tom Seaver                19369   Mets/Reds/Mets/White Sox/Red Sox
    19   Robin Roberts             19174   Phillies/Orioles/Astros/Cubs
    20   Christy Mathewson         19136   Giants/Reds
    21   Jim Kaat                  19021   Senators/Twins/White Sox/Phillies/Yankees/Cardinals

  13. #40
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by kheidg- View Post
    While I don't have an argument against Tommy John - I couldn't disagree more.

    Jim Kaat had 16 gold glove awards including 13 straight. This is a record for a pitcher. He is second in total to only Maddux and his 18.

    Tommy John didn't have a single gold glove award.

    And, Kaat, in his 14-season prime, from 1962-75, he started 480 games, appeared in 524, went 225-163 and produced a 3.21 ERA.
    Unlike players at other positions I don't give a significant boost to pitchers because of their fielding abilities, or lack thereof. What matters to me with a pitcher is how well did he prevent the other team from scoring. Kaat and John's numbers , such as ERA+ and WHIP, are roughly comparable, and their careers greatly overlapped.
    I do tend to give a slight edge to Kaat because I think he had a few more "big" years than did John, although they both won 20 games three times. Had MLB started the practice of giving a Cy Young award to a pitcher in each league in 1966 rather than 1967 then Kaat would have had that trophy, as he certainly would have been given the 1966 AL Cy Young award after a 25 win season.
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  14. #41
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    The difference is that Hornung (and Alex Karras) was only suspended for a year then reinstated. Pro football has never had a Black Sox scandal in their past so they never had any ineligible players when it came time to have a hall of fame.
    Hornung was also publicly contrite, unlike Karras, which may help explain why Hornung is in the HOF while Karras is not.
    Rose of course was defiant and lied about his gambling for a decade.
    Karras does get the distinction of easily being the best actor of the trio.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  15. #42
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    Hornung was also publicly contrite, unlike Karras, which may help explain why Hornung is in the HOF while Karras is not.
    Rose of course was defiant and lied about his gambling for a decade.
    Karras does get the distinction of easily being the best actor of the trio.
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  17. #43
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    I didn't realize managers don't have to wait the 5 years after retirement as players do-is this because they are older and want to give them a chance to make sure they are alive when enshrined, or is their playing career taken into account as well?
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  18. #44
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    So MLB has expanded and it's become significantly tougher to make the HOF. Cooperstown is making itself obsolete. My cursory count for NFL players who started their careers in the 1980s who've made it to Canton is 37.
    I don't get that either.

    Didn't no one get elected to the HOF last year? If that doesn't say that the system is broken, I am not sure what does.

    And this whole distinction of "First time ballot HOF" or "You know, we're going to make this guy wait 10+ years" is elitist and stupid.

    Would it have killed anyone to vote in Biggio last year? The guy had no steriod ties that I know of. He was one of the most famous players of his era. All star at C, 2b and OF.. (Not that allstar appearances correlates with performance, but I doubt anyone ever does that again)..

    If Biggio doesn't have enough "fame" to get in, what's the point of having the HOF, other than a monument to Ruth and other guys.. The message seems to be "They don't make ballplayers as good as they used to."

    And as another side, the system is also broken if Lofton falls off on the first ballot. What a joke.
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  19. #45
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I don't get that either.

    Didn't no one get elected to the HOF last year? If that doesn't say that the system is broken, I am not sure what does.

    And this whole distinction of "First time ballot HOF" or "You know, we're going to make this guy wait 10+ years" is elitist and stupid.

    Would it have killed anyone to vote in Biggio last year? The guy had no steriod ties that I know of. He was one of the most famous players of his era. All star at C, 2b and OF.. (Not that allstar appearances correlates with performance, but I doubt anyone ever does that again)..

    If Biggio doesn't have enough "fame" to get in, what's the point of having the HOF, other than a monument to Ruth and other guys.. The message seems to be "They don't make ballplayers as good as they used to."

    And as another side, the system is also broken if Lofton falls off on the first ballot. What a joke.
    I can't disagree with you more. This is why I love the way MLB does it. If there are no qualified players in a given year, none go in. I think it's ridiculous that 6 players must be elected per year for the NFL, no matter what.

    I will agree with your point that the whole "1st ballot" issue is asinine. You are either a HOFer or you are not. It's silly that guys aren't good enough to get in 5 years after they retire, but do become good enough 10, 15, 20 years later.

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