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Thread: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 3)

  1. #976
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by top6 View Post
    Bengals are saying there are 10,000 tickets available, and there are still good seats available on the web site. I really doubt this game comes that close to selling out. I guess that would have been the only positive to playing the Steelers.
    I didn't buy any tickets, but I went through the process just to see. Gave me a pair in 309 (about the 40 yard line), row 21 (which isn't right at the top either).

    I think they're going to have problems selling out, especially since the League sets the postseason ticket prices, and teams can't offer discounts to sell seats to corporations or other bulk purchase groups.

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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 3)

    Calling all Monday morning Quarterbacks!
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    It's lazy but at the end of the day it's still the best bet.

    To be honest, though, in that situation, it's not just about playing percentages; there's no doubt in my mind running it up the gut is the highest percentage play. However, like was mentioned, if the Bengals run it up the middle and get stuffed three straight plays, so what? At least they'd have run off almost two more minutes of game clock. At that point in the game, it's a win even if they had to settle for a field goal (or go for it on 4th & 1 meaning the Ravens would have to go 99 yards).
    Sure, but I was speaking to a generality that the poster was making, not this particular situation. Plus, if you mix it up in short yardage, then the defense may not sell out on the plunge play and increase the ability to pound it in going forward. That failure (unintended) may help in a playoff game where we need a yard for a score and call the plunge. Now SD and all future opponents have to cover a read option, a quick out to a tall receiver, Domato Peko in the backfield, etc. I think the "man up, don't deserve it if you can't get a yard" philosophy is some manly man stuff that gets in the way of thinking.
    Last edited by traderumor; 12-30-2013 at 11:52 AM.
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by hebroncougar View Post
    Jones had the ball, and got outmuscled for it. That isn't on Dalton. That goal line throw was just a stupid, stupid play. Especially on first down.
    Jones had to fight for it because it was a jump ball. You win some of those and you lose some but there's no reason to throw that one up for grabs. Run a safer play where the defender doesn't have a 50:50 chance or wrestling it away from our player. That situation called for a much safer play than a jump ball. If we play Denver in a playoff game, I hope Peyton eschews the 7 yd out to Welker in exchange for a jump ball to a WR. That will help us beat a much better QB.

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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 3)

    I like aggressive play calling. Dalton is at his best when we're attacking. Late in the year Jay has been very aggressive and I think he knows that's how we'll win in the playoffs, but that doesn't mean you have to abandon situational football.

    Up 10 in the 4th quarter I thought a few of the calls either Jay made or Dalton checked to weren't aggressive, they were just bad plays in that situation.

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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stray View Post
    I like aggressive play calling. Dalton is at his best when we're attacking. Late in the year Jay has been very aggressive and I think he knows that's how we'll win in the playoffs, but that doesn't mean you have to abandon situational football.

    Up 10 in the 4th quarter I thought a few of the calls either Jay made or Dalton checked to weren't aggressive, they were just bad plays in that situation.
    There's agressive and there's stupid. I put the 1st and 4th INTs into the stupid category

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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    There's agressive and there's stupid. I put the 1st and 4th INTs into the stupid category
    That's the thing about risk--high risk failures make you either look stupid or like a high flying wizard. There's safety in the middle. You can always pass the buck to poor execution on the "safe" play calls--"if we can't get a yard, then we are worthless and weak." Of course, "safe" play calls have their own risk, when they fail and the second guessers want you to be more risky.

    The play caller is a thankless job.
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  9. #983
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    I have no problem with either "throw", just the decision to throw it. On the first play he should have seen that Jones was covered and checked down or thrown it away. It was unnecessarily risky to throw it up for grabs.

    Ditto on the goal line play. You pound that into the line a few times before you ever take that risk. My problem with Dalton is not physical. It's with his risk management. There are times to take risks but yesterday was not one of them. We had them beaten in all phases of the game. All we had to do to win was to go toe to toes with 'em. The only way they could stay with us is if we give them TOs
    He has receivers that can go up and get the football and he's being coached to trust his receivers. If you have a problem with Dalton's decision to throw those balls, then your criticism should be of the Bengals' coaching staff, as they're the ones instructing him to trust his receivers in those situations.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Sure, but I was speaking to a generality that the poster was making, not this particular situation. Plus, if you mix it up in short yardage, then the defense may not sell out on the plunge play and increase the ability to pound it in going forward. That failure (unintended) may help in a playoff game where we need a yard for a score and call the plunge. Now SD and all future opponents have to cover a read option, a quick out to a tall receiver, Domato Peko in the backfield, etc. I think the "man up, don't deserve it if you can't get a yard" philosophy is some manly man stuff that gets in the way of thinking.
    That makes sense. In that case, I agree with you as a philosophy. I just was talking about that specific situation.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    I like to mix it up, whether a few feet or a few yards. I'll never begrudge an attempt to mix it up on the goal line after watching your philosophy make things much harder than it ought to be or fail from predictability, even if some times the riskier play doesn't work out (which is why it is being discussed). I can recall several 3rd and 1's up the middle from various places on the field being stuffed this season with the mentality of "you don't deserve it if you can't get a yard" philosophy. Some have been game changers. I was glad to see them mix it up several times on short yardage instead of mindlessly plowing into a scrum and hoping for the best.
    Getting stoned on a 3rd and 1 at other times in the game is different than 1st and goal at the 1 in the 4th quarter. The problem is that the decision to "mix it up" is made without taking the context of the situation into account. In a 3rd and 1, it's your last shot before having to decide to punt or go for it. In the 1st and goal/4th quarter scenario, you have 2 more shots before deciding whether to kick a field goal or go for it, plus you need to run time off the clock. In that situation the Bengals had to take three things into account: scoring, clock managment, and turnover avoidance. A running play in that situation has 2 positive outcomes, TD or run time off the clock, and one negative, fumble. A pass has 1 positive, TD, and two negative, interception or incomplete, stopping the clock. To me, the choice is to go with the play with more positive outcomes than negative, because even if you fail twice, run the pass play on 3rd and short, and throw the interception, you've still run a big chunk of time off the clock and time can be the difference between winning and losing.

    In one aspect, I'm glad they made the mistake yesterday so they can learn from it. If they make the same mistake in the playoffs, chances are the other team will make them pay for it.
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  13. #986
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    That's the thing about risk--high risk failures make you either look stupid or like a high flying wizard. There's safety in the middle. You can always pass the buck to poor execution on the "safe" play calls--"if we can't get a yard, then we are worthless and weak." Of course, "safe" play calls have their own risk, when they fail and the second guessers want you to be more risky.

    The play caller is a thankless job.
    The best coaches and QBs ever are the ones who first and foremost "take care of the football". And that's not what Andy did by throwing it up for grabs. INTs (turnovers) are poison for a football team. It's the most important stat. It's not worth risking a turnover for a 25 yd gain on 1st and ten or a 1 yd gain on 1st and goal. For example that first INT resulted in a FG for the Ravens. Had it been complete and Jones had pulled it in for us, we still would have been far away from FG range

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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Getting stoned on a 3rd and 1 at other times in the game is different than 1st and goal at the 1 in the 4th quarter. The problem is that the decision to "mix it up" is made without taking the context of the situation into account. In a 3rd and 1, it's your last shot before having to decide to punt or go for it. In the 1st and goal/4th quarter scenario, you have 2 more shots before deciding whether to kick a field goal or go for it, plus you need to run time off the clock. In that situation the Bengals had to take three things into account: scoring, clock managment, and turnover avoidance. A running play in that situation has 2 positive outcomes, TD or run time off the clock, and one negative, fumble. A pass has 1 positive, TD, and two negative, interception or incomplete, stopping the clock. To me, the choice is to go with the play with more positive outcomes than negative, because even if you fail twice, run the pass play on 3rd and short, and throw the interception, you've still run a big chunk of time off the clock and time can be the difference between winning and losing.

    In one aspect, I'm glad they made the mistake yesterday so they can learn from it. If they make the same mistake in the playoffs, chances are the other team will make them pay for it.
    Except you were not talking about that particular situation, you were talking about general philosophy, which is what I spoke to. All things considered, it may not have been a great choice, but we weren't discussing from the perspective of "all things considered" when I responded. You baited and switched.
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  15. #988
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    He has receivers that can go up and get the football and he's being coached to trust his receivers. If you have a problem with Dalton's decision to throw those balls, then your criticism should be of the Bengals' coaching staff, as they're the ones instructing him to trust his receivers in those situations.
    I think the coaches deserve some blame. Today they should be coaching him by explaining why his audible on 1st and goal was a bad one. Furthermore they ought to consider taking away his ability to audible in certain circumstances in the future. Mike Ditka did that to his QB, now infamous coach for the 49ers, while coach of the Bears after a stupid audible

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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    The best coaches and QBs ever are the ones who first and foremost "take care of the football". And that's not what Andy did by throwing it up for grabs. INTs (turnovers) are poison for a football team. It's the most important stat. It's not worth risking a turnover for a 25 yd gain on 1st and ten or a 1 yd gain on 1st and goal. For example that first INT resulted in a FG for the Ravens. Had it been complete and Jones had pulled it in for us, we still would have been far away from FG range
    You do realize that the interception came right after they flashed the stat in pregame of 131 consecutive passes without an interception? So looking at one pass and saying "they are poor at taking care of the ball" is a bit of a stretch. If Jones holds on, he's likely racing down the sidelines for a large gain of more than 25 yards. I would say making a big bet on play 1 gives you dozens more plays to overcome a bad outcome. Classic high risk/high reward. Jim Tressel would love you as a playcaller
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  17. #990
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    I think the coaches deserve some blame. Today they should be coaching him by explaining why his audible on 1st and goal was a bad one. Furthermore they ought to consider taking away his ability to audible in certain circumstances in the future. Mike Ditka did that to his QB, now infamous coach for the 49ers, while coach of the Bears after a stupid audible
    I think you are overreacting
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