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Thread: Who will get Choo?

  1. #61
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    Re: Who will get Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    If Bowden is correct and Choo gets around $85 million over five years, the Reds would probably pay that much.

    They would have to rid themselves of one big contract, probably Phillips. But $17 per year for five years for Choo would probably be feasible.

    I'm guessing that's the limit though. Guessing that's the lowest Choo would take and the highest the Reds would pay.

    Choo remains an ideal signing since the Reds don't lose a draft pick and since he can play CF now and move over to left for BH.

    Only issue with Choo is that it still leaves the Reds without the big righty slugger. Maybe Ludwick manages for one more year, if healthy, and Reds try to get the righty bat next off-season.
    I agree about the big righty bat. I've been saying that they need a long term right handed solution between Bruce and votto off of this board since prior to the 2010 season. It seems as if when they have that whether it be a Rolen in his final good year in 2010 or Gomes on fire the first half of that year or 2012 with ludwick, the teams takes off.

    Idk if it was the futility of Stubbs in the leadoff spot or the growing sentiment that OBP is king and RBI are dead, but it seems to me the reds are always far too worried about leadoff and not enough about the middle of the order. RBI are important not as an indicator of personal performance, but of team performance.
    OBP is vital as well-the same with stacking your best hitters and bring able to stagger whether they are a lefty or righty so that the lineup can be effective the entire length of the game not just am advantage at the beginning middle or end. A right handed bat does all of these things. Increases OBP to make up for choo, helps the reds stack the best hitters in the lineup, and helps to turn vottos huge OBP into RBI. It does this while going the things that always seem to be shunned on here like staggering whether the batter us lefty or righty and offering lineup protection. Getting a right handed bat covers the reds on sabermetric and traditionalist thought, while bring choo back creates the same lineup situations we had last year-mega OBP then a hole in the lineup. If choo is brought back for big money, then the reds have to make further moves to fix those holes. A right handed bat fixes the hole and adds OBP in one move.

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  4. #62
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    Re: Who will get Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    I agree about the big righty bat. I've been saying that they need a long term right handed solution between Bruce and votto off of this board since prior to the 2010 season. It seems as if when they have that whether it be a Rolen in his final good year in 2010 or Gomes on fire the first half of that year or 2012 with ludwick, the teams takes off.

    Idk if it was the futility of Stubbs in the leadoff spot or the growing sentiment that OBP is king and RBI are dead, but it seems to me the reds are always far too worried about leadoff and not enough about the middle of the order. RBI are important not as an indicator of personal performance, but of team performance.
    OBP is vital as well-the same with stacking your best hitters and bring able to stagger whether they are a lefty or righty so that the lineup can be effective the entire length of the game not just am advantage at the beginning middle or end. A right handed bat does all of these things. Increases OBP to make up for choo, helps the reds stack the best hitters in the lineup, and helps to turn vottos huge OBP into RBI. It does this while going the things that always seem to be shunned on here like staggering whether the batter us lefty or righty and offering lineup protection. Getting a right handed bat covers the reds on sabermetric and traditionalist thought, while bring choo back creates the same lineup situations we had last year-mega OBP then a hole in the lineup. If choo is brought back for big money, then the reds have to make further moves to fix those holes. A right handed bat fixes the hole and adds OBP in one move.
    A simpler way to look at it is this: many teams have built their offense around a potent 3-4-5 hitting combo which usually includes at least one RHH.

    You then fill the other spots as best you can with platoons and guys who are just fundamentally decent hitters.

    But I also believe you take your stars where you can get them. If the Reds can afford Choo and he wants to play in Cincy, i think you go for it.

    This is why I always liked the Ludwick signing. Respectably righty power hitter at a modest cost for a few years. He's very unpopular now because of his injured season, but he paid dividends in 2012.

    If they could sign Choo and pick up righty power guys at the Ludwick level for a few years, I think the offense would be in good shape.

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  6. #63
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    Re: Who will get Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    A simpler way to look at it is this: many teams have built their offense around a potent 3-4-5 hitting combo which usually includes at least one RHH.

    You then fill the other spots as best you can with platoons and guys who are just fundamentally decent hitters.

    But I also believe you take your stars where you can get them. If the Reds can afford Choo and he wants to play in Cincy, i think you go for it.

    This is why I always liked the Ludwick signing. Respectably righty power hitter at a modest cost for a few years. He's very unpopular now because of his injured season, but he paid dividends in 2012.

    If they could sign Choo and pick up righty power guys at the Ludwick level for a few years, I think the offense would be in good shape.
    Id be completely cool with choo if he is signed at the right price. I think 3 years with a team option at the end of the fourth and 5th year with a cost of 50 million for the first three years, with a huge buyout number for the option years may be a creative way of keeping choo around if he really wants to stay without guaranteeing him past three years when the prospects will be coming up, but giving the reds the chance to keep him if he continues to produce buy a large buyout to satisfy his monetary nerds should the reds choose not to bring him back.

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    Re: Who will get Choo?

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/1...avis-choo.html


    Shin-Soo Choo could be on the decline and will cost too much for the Rangers to pursue in free agency, ESPN Dallas' Todd Wills opines. McCann is a better fit for Texas' needs, Wills argues.

  8. #65
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    Re: Who will get Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    I just don't see it as a possibility. He's gone. We've all been reading rumors of various trade scenarios, such as Phillips, maybe Bailey, and Arroyo is most likely gone to. And it's due to the fact that the Red's payroll is stretched to the limit. I've read rumors lately, and I don't know how true they are, that the ownership has even mandated payroll be trimmed.

    But if they are in that type of situation, then, in reality, they have no intention of seriously trying to keep Choo.

    It's gonna be an interesting off-season watching what this FO does because, again, they are at a crossroads and changes have to be made.

    And while I like the kid, I'm just not too enthusiastic at seeing Hamilton leading off for us next year because I just don't think he is ready.

    Instead of filling holes, addressing needs, we may be creating them as far as the 2014 season goes. It may very well come down to a FO letting the chips fall where they may with what we got, hoping it works out, certain players step up/meet expectations, and all because of payroll considerations. I hope I'm wrong.
    I hear you, man. My realist side says pretty much the same thing. Where are you reading these rumors about payroll trimming and austerity in the Reds FO? MLBTR has been banging the "don't count Cincy out on Choo" drum for awhile now.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  9. #66
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    Re: Who will get Choo?

    Don't rule out Rivers Cuomo.

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    Re: Who will get Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Don't rule out Rivers Cuomo.
    From weezer ?

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    Re: Who will get Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    Two questions- what would the Reds gain if they came out and said "we have offered Shin-Soo Choo a contract for 5 years and 85 million dollars (the most recent projection I have read) and it is the best we can do no matter what." They risk destroying their own chances to re-sign the player or negotiate at all. Leverage is brought to a minimum, even in terms of creative contract construction, like deferred money. Furthermore, contracts often have a lot more going on in them than just years and money, so focusing on 80% of the deal as the driver (which it may be) while ignoring the 20% that would be escalators, incentives, bonuses, options, perks, deferred money, and whatever else, ignores the fact that this is a real business with real business discussions and not MLB 2K14.
    I wasn't ignoring this "20%", which you say could include escalators, incentives, perks, etc. I wasn't going in that great of detail about what any offer (contract), if any, would be. I was coming solely from the vantage point (generality), and I acknowledged it was my subjective opinion (nothing more, isn't a guarantee) that in all likelihood they won't be able to afford him. But again, I also said - I could be wrong, and I hope I'm wrong.


    I agree with The Operator as well- we don't have any idea of what the Reds' finances are. So hand-wringing about the Reds being financially hamstrung because of a bad Broxton contract or whatever else isn't really a starting point for discussion of player acquisition.
    I'm not doing any hand-wronging or worrying. I don't fret over the game of baseball (especially the financial aspect which I have no control over).

    Look - everything I'm seeing everyone post on here, including myself, is rooted in what? ...... rumors, word-of-mouth, and what is being reported. Right now that's all any of us have to go on. And it's still early in the off-season too.

    When it comes to the Reds facing payroll constraints ... I never said they had to drastically cut payroll, but only that they've basically taken it, stretched it out, as far they can) ... that has been reported by numerous sources ranging from HardballTalk to MLBTRadeRumors to various sports outlets/analysts from ESPN, Sporting News, SI, etc.

    Are they right? Heck I don't know. I just take it for what it's worth. But yes, I do think there is some truth to it if so many are reporting it. It can't be totally discounted. And everyone of them makes the same contention...... that the Reds want to resign Choo .... BUT .... in order to accomplish this (find the money) they have to clear payroll, get creative (i.e. trade a contract).

    Now there may be other reasoning as to why they might be dangling Phillips; but most agree it's to create payroll flexibility if they want any shot at resigning Choo.

    They have several players in arb situations (including Bailey and Leake). Do they intend to keep Bailey? He made 5.3M last year. Leake had a solid year. And then Latos' contract is up after next season.

    So yeah - my wild guess is that their payroll is constrained in the sense of trying to find that money to resign Choo. Especially if Boras is looking for a contract around $90-100M. And he'll probably get it when one looks at the contracts of Hunter Pence and Jayson Werth.
    Last edited by GAC; 11-17-2013 at 07:17 AM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Re: Who will get Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Operator View Post
    Why are some of you so sure The Reds are out of money and have to either maintain status quo or even cut payroll?

    All we heard for months and months back in 2011 was that Joey Votto was as good as gone but they found a way to sign him and they also shelled out the money to sign BP long-term too.

    This team isn't owned by Carl Lindner anymore.
    Even if the team has more money than we think, that doesn't mean it is good business to continue to accumulate contracts that require high yearly salaries for a lot of a players decline years.

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    Re: Who will get Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    I wasn't ignoring this "20%", which you say could include escalators, incentives, perks, etc. I wasn't going in that great of detail about what any offer (contract), if any, would be. I was coming solely from the vantage point (generality), and I acknowledged it was my subjective opinion (nothing more, isn't a guarantee) that in all likelihood they won't be able to afford him. But again, I also said - I could be wrong, and I hope I'm wrong.




    I'm not doing any hand-wronging or worrying. I don't fret over the game of baseball (especially the financial aspect which I have no control over).

    Look - everything I'm seeing everyone post on here, including myself, is rooted in what? ...... rumors, word-of-mouth, and what is being reported. Right now that's all any of us have to go on. And it's still early in the off-season too.

    When it comes to the Reds facing payroll constraints ... I never said they had to drastically cut payroll, but only that they've basically taken it, stretched it out, as far they can) ... that has been reported by numerous sources ranging from HardballTalk to MLBTRadeRumors to various sports outlets/analysts from ESPN, Sporting News, SI, etc.

    Are they right? Heck I don't know. I just take it for what it's worth. But yes, I do think there is some truth to it if so many are reporting it. It can't be totally discounted. And everyone of them makes the same contention...... that the Reds want to resign Choo .... BUT .... in order to accomplish this (find the money) they have to clear payroll, get creative (i.e. trade a contract).

    Now there may be other reasoning as to why they might be dangling Phillips; but most agree it's to create payroll flexibility if they want any shot at resigning Choo.

    They have several players in arb situations (including Bailey and Leake). Do they intend to keep Bailey? He made 5.3M last year. Leake had a solid year. And then Latos' contract is up after next season.

    So yeah - my wild guess is that their payroll is constrained in the sense of trying to find that money to resign Choo. Especially if Boras is looking for a contract around $90-100M. And he'll probably get it when one looks at the contracts of Hunter Pence and Jayson Werth.
    The problem is that those same media outlets are the same ones that still talk about how the Bengals always give players with spotty criminal histories a chance and have no standards for their roster.

    Sometimes the media likes to hang on to stories, even if they aren't true or relevant any more. The Reds have shown in recent history a willingness to expand payroll and go after higher-paid players, and have been increasing attendance and a new TV deal is (apparently) looming. There seems to be a good amount of evidence that the Reds could increase payroll.

    I think this is a media thing and not a Reds thing.
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    Re: Who will get Choo?

    I'm not sure the Reds will be able to extend all three of Latos, Bailey and Cueto. To me, Latos is the keeper of the three and I'd do everything I could to wrap him up this offseason. Bailey is my second choice and if they can extend him I'm all for it, but everything I've heard and read over the recent past, I don't think he signs without at least testing the market.

    If so, then I am willing to deal him if the return is right. Maybe a replacement for Phillips and a young arm I really like who is 1-1.5 years out (in an expanded deal). If they do get Bailey inked then I'd look at the retrun for Cueto.

    As for the reset of the rotation. Leake stays as the fourth or fifth starter. Chapman or Cingrani are in the rotation. I believe Chapman will be there if Price has his way. If so, Cingrani will be in the rotation also or the sixth starter and a bullpen arm.

    I'm probably wrong, but I have this sneaking suspisicison that Arroyo may yet work a late deal with the Reds - something in the 2 year.%25M range and a 3rd year option/buyout of around $4M (much of the deal deferred).

    I also think Stephenson will be knocking on the door by the all-star break and the are much better options at AAA this year for emergency starters.

    I do think there's an 85% chance that at least one of Chapman, Bailey or Cueto is dealt though if there's a return that can fill a couple of spots with countrollability for several years.
    Last edited by corkedbat; 11-17-2013 at 01:59 PM.

  17. #72
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    Re: Who will get Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by cinredsfan2000 View Post
    From weezer ?
    Nothing? Anyone? I give up.


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    Re: Who will get Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    The problem is that those same media outlets are the same ones that still talk about how the Bengals always give players with spotty criminal histories a chance and have no standards for their roster.

    Sometimes the media likes to hang on to stories, even if they aren't true or relevant any more. The Reds have shown in recent history a willingness to expand payroll and go after higher-paid players, and have been increasing attendance and a new TV deal is (apparently) looming. There seems to be a good amount of evidence that the Reds could increase payroll.

    I think this is a media thing and not a Reds thing.
    And you could be absolutely right buddy. You'll get no argument from me there.

    And I commended Bob C earlier for the way he has shown the willingness, in order to bring winning to the Reds, in expanding that payroll. All I'm saying - again based on various reports - is that they've stretched that rubber band about as far as it can go. And in order to find the money to resign Choo they are going to have to get creative with the payroll in some way (trade a contract, defer money, whatever).

    Looking at who is possibly going after Choo.... Boras is going to get him his money. I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the 90-100M range.

    And if the Reds do make that decision and sign him for that amount of money, they'll not only be some fans who will find that excessive for a player they say is entering his "declining years" .......but Brandon Phillips will be really miffed. They'll have to trade him then.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Re: Who will get Choo?

    I will go on record as saying if the Reds are the ones that sign him for five years and 80 - 100 million, it is way excessive for a guy who will spend a lot of that in his decline years and that is something this franchise cannot and should not do. They have already done that with Votto and Phillips. They should not saddle the organization with another such contract.

    ETA: Also, Choo did okay on health last year, but he has not exactly been a paragon of health in his career, and I would be troubled over that factor in any long-range big money contract for him into his mid-30s...
    Last edited by membengal; 11-18-2013 at 07:59 AM.

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    Re: Who will get Choo?

    http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer/...eeagent-market


    The Rangers are considering a run at top-tier free-agent outfielder Shin-Soo Choo but have apparently ruled out the other top free agent outfielder, Jacoby Ellsbury.

    Texas needs to replace the offense provided by Nelson Cruz, and assuming the Rangers don't re-sign Cruz, Choo fits the bill. However, a Rangers connected person suggested they aren't likely to secure him if "rumored prices" are accurate.

    That person didn't specify with rumors he was referring to, but word is out Choo and agent Scott Boras have in mind the previous deals for Jayson Werth ($126 million, seven years) and Carl Crawford ($142 million, seven years) as he seeks teams in the bidding for Choo and Ellsbury.


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