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Thread: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

  1. #16
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    No.
    Then what are you trying to say? That you want Votto to stop looking for pitches in zones that he knows he can drive?

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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    The bottom line is the team lacks enough good hitters. Get some more and Votto will be "fixed."
    That's really it in a nutshell.
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  5. #18
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I've always believed that this theory is an oversimplification.

    How many teams could score enough runs to win a championship if they depended on four men or more reaching base per inning.

    The idea that every player has the job of getting on base is fine. But real world, how many teams can win getting one base at a time, at least four in an inning. Few or none.
    You're absolutely right. However, getting one base at a time isn't the only way a team scores. That's why OBP isn't the only part of OPS. Slugging is in there too, with good reason.

    The thing is, you are only going to slug at a consistently high level when taking aggressive swings at pitches you can hit, and driving them. If you're swinging at pitches you can't handle, then you're going to make lots of outs. Just ask Frazier. And that goes back to the idea that the batter's first job is to not get out.

    Every team inevitably has several batter who do NOT frequently get on base. No team in the real world waits every time for four baserunners.

    So you need some guys who compensate by hitting rather than walking. By getting doubles rather than singles. By getting homers rather than doubles.
    I want players that are selectively aggressive in their hitting approach.

    If I thought that Votto truthfully views his job simply to "get on base" I would want to trade him. But I don't think that's it at all.

    What Votto is really saying IMO is this -- they don't pitch to me that much. I seldom get the pitches I want. And I'd rather walk than swing at pitches that I won't hit well.

    Votto is correct. And I firmly believe that all this would change -- including Joey's "approach" -- if he was surrounded by better hitters. He would get more to hit. Pitchers would not WANT to walk him for fear of the damage the next guy will do.

    The bottom line is the team lacks enough good hitters. Get some more and Votto will be "fixed."
    You and I are in total agreement on this point.
    Sabermetrics can be boiled down to this simple truism: A batter's goal is to extend the inning. Extend enough innings and you're going to score runs. Extend more innings than your opponent and you're going to score more runs than him.

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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by SlimJim11 View Post
    Then what are you trying to say? That you want Votto to stop looking for pitches in zones that he knows he can drive?
    Not at all.

    There are pitches that are very hittable, but aren't perfect pitches. Sometimes a hitter needs to swing at less than perfect pitches.
    "I donít know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody".
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    That's really it in a nutshell.
    Yes, and frankly I was unhappy about Walt's comment that Joey might have to hit in a different spot. I think the comment doesn't reflect what is going on.

    Get a lineup with Choo, Phillips, Votto, Bautista, Bruce, Sandoval, Mesoraco, Cozart and let's see how Joey does.

    Or something similar.

  8. #21
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Not at all.

    There are pitches that are very hittable, but aren't perfect pitches. Sometimes a hitter needs to swing at less than perfect pitches.
    The pitches might seem hittable to you, but what if the hitter is looking for a different pitch, or a pitch in a different location.


    I still can't get my head around people wanting to tell Joey Votto how to change his approach. He's a top 5 hitter in all of baseball because of the way he approaches hitting.


    Also I think assuming Votto only swings at perfect pitches is a tad silly.

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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by SlimJim11 View Post
    The pitches might seem hittable to you, but what if the hitter is looking for a different pitch, or a pitch in a different location.


    I still can't get my head around people wanting to tell Joey Votto how to change his approach. He's a top 5 hitter in all of baseball because of the way he approaches hitting.


    Also I think assuming Votto only swings at perfect pitches is a tad silly.
    I'm not saying Votto should change his approach. I specifically said that overall it seems like his approach was working fine.

    My only point is that Poz and other writers keep saying that expanding the zone means swinging at bad pitches. It doesn't. It simply means swinging at more good pitches, not just the best one.
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  11. #23
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    I'm not saying Votto should change his approach. I specifically said that overall it seems like his approach was working fine.

    My only point is that Poz and other writers keep saying that expanding the zone means swinging at bad pitches. It doesn't. It simply means swinging at more good pitches, not just the best one.

    It is probably in response to all those times they've heard announcers say guys need to go after that pitch just off the plate and bloop it into the opposite field.

    That thought has come across the Reds airwaves many many times.

  12. #24
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Very interesting discussion even though we have disagreements. So given what we've read of Don Long's teaching philosophy, do folks think (if he succeeds in his pupils learning) this may help some of those hitters like Todd Frazier? Or getting Jay Bruce out of his roller coaster hitting? I hesitate to write that last line, because I've become a believer of Jay being what he is and his final numbers and production are what are important, even if it ain't pretty getting there. Of course, I'm also of the mind that Jay Bruce is one of the smartest players on the club, perhaps one ready to step into a leadership position and seems to be constantly looking to improve his game.
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    Very interesting discussion even though we have disagreements. So given what we've read of Don Long's teaching philosophy, do folks think (if he succeeds in his pupils learning) this may help some of those hitters like Todd Frazier?
    A hitting coach can philosophize until he's blue in the face but if the hitters don't follow his advice then it really doesn't matter what his philosophy is. Everybody killed Jacoby when he was here but he did not seem to have a negative effect on Votto. The hitters may listen and try to follow his advice but in the heat of battle, instinct takes over. They only have a split second to decide whether to swing or not. When the hitter sees a 95 MPH letter high fastball, no matter what Don Long says he might decide in that split second to hack away. If he doesn't succeed he may be sorry he did it.

    If you read Buzz Bissinger's book 3 Nights in August there's a passage in there about hitters and what LaRussa noticed about them when he first started managing in Chicago. According to LaRussa, hitters don't like to be meddled with. They hate trying a new stance or swing because they believe they had to have done something right to get that far. You could have Ted Williams coach Vlad Guerrero and no matter what Ted says, Vlad's eventually going to swing at an ankle high pitch.
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    You could have Ted Williams coach Vlad Guerrero and no matter what Ted says, Vlad's eventually going to swing at an ankle high pitch.
    Bad example. Guerrero could hit that ankle high pitch, maybe even hit a HR on it. He was one of the rare hitters who could.

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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    I don't think anyone would be complaining if Votto's increased selectivity at the plate was leading to him doing more damage when he did swing. The problem is it has had exactly the opposite effect (or maybe it's just coincidence).

    If Votto is being selective and waiting for exactly the right pitch to drive, why isn't he driving more pitches?

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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by AmarilloRed View Post
    Bad example. Guerrero could hit that ankle high pitch, maybe even hit a HR on it. He was one of the rare hitters who could.
    There have been plenty of "bad ball" hitters throughout the years in the game. Clemente was a great bad ball hitter I agree with Chip, most hitters don't like you messing with them and you have to gain trust. A little tip here or there to help out, and trying to keep confidence high is the best a hitting coach is going to hope for. Making them think they figured it out on their own is one of the best tricks a hitting coach, or any coach for that matter, can have. You don't overhaul major league hitters. Those swing habits are ingrained over a lot of years and that swing certainly got them to the big leagues. There are tinkerers. Cal Ripken was one of them, but basically being able to recognize the hitters natural swing and being able to get them back to the things they do well is basically the job. Noticing the little things. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. if it is broke, make them think they fixed it themselves.
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  18. #29
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Yes, and frankly I was unhappy about Walt's comment that Joey might have to hit in a different spot. I think the comment doesn't reflect what is going on.
    Agreed, though I'm not opposed to Votto hitting 2nd. Plus, the two guys who hit directly behind Votto most of the season ended up with 100+ RBI. So the lineup was working in that regard.

    Personally I'd have like Walt to answer that question like this: "If you think Joey Votto's a problem, you're wrong. And when you're that wrong you probably ought to keep quiet about it."
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  20. #30
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by AmarilloRed View Post
    Bad example. Guerrero could hit that ankle high pitch, maybe even hit a HR on it. He was one of the rare hitters who could.
    Sure. But swinging at an ankle high pitch is not something that is recommended. I'm sure there are people out there that believe that Vlad could have been one of the all-time greats if he laid off those bad pitches and walked more.

    Using a lesser example, remember that game earlier this year where Todd Frazier hit that really bad pitch over the shortstop's head and drove in 1 or 2 runs which, IIRC, were the difference in the game. I doubt even Jacoby would have recommended he swing at a pitch like that. But Don Long can tell Todd to be patient and not swing at a bad pitch like that and it may take for a while but eventually he's probably going to swing at that pitch on pure instinct. Todd could use an example like that to justify swinging at such a pitch.
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