Turn Off Ads?
Page 3 of 41 FirstFirst 123456713 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 603

Thread: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

  1. #31
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    28,163

    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    I don't think anyone would be complaining if Votto's increased selectivity at the plate was leading to him doing more damage when he did swing. The problem is it has had exactly the opposite effect (or maybe it's just coincidence).

    If Votto is being selective and waiting for exactly the right pitch to drive, why isn't he driving more pitches?
    Votto has the best career batting average of any Reds player that anyone on this board has ever seen. He's first all-time on the team OB list and second all-time on the team SLG list. He is, in short, the most dangerous player at the plate in franchise history.

    If what you want is a guy who hits 40 HR every year like clockwork, then the Reds need to get that guy and add him to Votto. Though the last guy the team had with that kind of power caused no shortage of arguments.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  2. Likes:

    CoachBombay (11-18-2013), Dan (11-14-2013), Fil3232 (11-14-2013), HeatherC1212 (11-15-2013), joshua (11-15-2013), Larkin Fan (11-14-2013), Mitri (11-15-2013), MWM (11-14-2013), pahster (11-14-2013), paintmered (11-14-2013), Raisor (11-15-2013), RedEye (11-14-2013), RedFanAlways1966 (11-15-2013), The Operator (11-14-2013), villain612 (11-14-2013), westofyou (11-14-2013)

  3. Turn Off Ads?
  4. #32
    Member membengal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Baltimore
    Posts
    9,060

    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Votto has the best career batting average of any Reds player that anyone on this board has ever seen. He's first all-time on the team OB list and second all-time on the team SLG list. He is, in short, the most dangerous player at the plate in franchise history.

    If what you want is a guy who hits 40 HR every year like clockwork, then the Reds need to get that guy and add him to Votto. Though the last guy the team had with that kind of power caused no shortage of arguments.
    Indeed. The rail that Adam Dunn was run out of town on is, ironically, being prepped for Votto by some. Weird, huh?

  5. #33
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    679

    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Poz continues to make the same mistake he has been making in this argument for awhile. No one, and I mean no one is asking Votto to swing at bad pitches. It's a stupid and lazy mischaracterization of the opposing argument.

    The issue is whether or not Votto, and all hitters with runners on base, should just swing at pitches in their hit zone that they know they can hit for power, or also swing at pitches that they are confident they can hit for just a single, in order to drive the run home. Expanding the zone doesn't mean swinging at bad pitches, it means swinging at pitches that you can't crush, but you hit for a soft line drive.

    I'm not saying that Votto doesn't use this approach, it did seem like he did expand his zone in years past. But expanding the zone doesn't mean swinging at bad pitches or pitches way outside the srike zone. It just means swinging at pitches that are hittable, if not drivable.

    I'm really getting sick of writers like Poz writing such crap.
    This post makes very little sense to me. I don't think in the real world, there is a nice tidy category of "hittable pitches that aren't hittable for power", in between "hittable for power pitches" and "unhittable pitches." To me that breaks it down too fine and creates false distinctions. I don't think hitters look at it that way. I don't think pitchers look at it that way.

  6. Likes:

    CesarGeronimo (11-14-2013), MWM (11-14-2013), RedEye (11-14-2013), The Operator (11-14-2013)

  7. #34
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Shelburne Falls, MA
    Posts
    10,129

    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Hypothetical:

    You have to watch 10 ABs from one of these two players, randomly selected from all of their already recorded major league ABs.

    1. Vlad Guerrero
    2. Joey Votto

    Not intended to be an indictment of Votto. I love Votto and am glad they locked him up. But for entertainment value, I'm taking 10 random ABs from Vlad. (But Vlad vs. Manny Sanguillen, don't make me choose.)
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  8. #35
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    28,163

    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    Indeed. The rail that Adam Dunn was run out of town on is, ironically, being prepped for Votto by some. Weird, huh?
    They both make more money than Marty Brennaman. It's really the only standard that seems to matter.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  9. Likes:

    Larkin Fan (11-15-2013), lollipopcurve (11-14-2013), Revering4Blue (11-15-2013), westofyou (11-14-2013)

  10. #36
    Member 757690's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dayton
    Posts
    10,563

    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by redssince75 View Post
    This post makes very little sense to me. I don't think in the real world, there is a nice tidy category of "hittable pitches that aren't hittable for power", in between "hittable for power pitches" and "unhittable pitches." To me that breaks it down too fine and creates false distinctions. I don't think hitters look at it that way. I don't think pitchers look at it that way.
    There's a reason why Sean Casey, Tony Gwynn, Rod Carew, Wade Boggs all has high OBP and low SLG, for their size. They made a choice to value reaching base over slugging. They accomplished that by swinging at pitches sluggers wouldn't have, and turning them into singles at a high rate. They took advantage of meatballs to crush when they saw them, but they didn't wait for them. They took the first pitch they saw that they knew they could handle, and turned it into a single whenever possible.

    Every hitter has a hot zone, pitches they know they can crush. And every hitter also has a hit zone, pitches they know they can turn into singles at a high rate. As with all of hitting, the good ones know how to recognize one from the other, and react accordingly.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  11. #37
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    42,820

    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    There's a reason why Sean Casey, Tony Gwynn, Rod Carew, Wade Boggs all has high OBP and low SLG, for their size. They made a choice to value reaching base over slugging. They accomplished that by swinging at pitches sluggers wouldn't have, and turning them into singles at a high rate. They took advantage of meatballs to crush when they saw them, but they didn't wait for them. They took the first pitch they saw that they knew they could handle, and turned it into a single whenever possible.

    Every hitter has a hot zone, pitches they know they can crush. And every hitter also has a hit zone, pitches they know they can turn into singles at a high rate. As with all of hitting, the good ones know how to recognize one from the other, and react accordingly.
    Sean Casey doesn't belong in the same conversation as those three from my vantage point.

    I'll also point out that both Carew and Boggs (and most of Gwynns) best seasons came when they piled up their highest BB totals.

    Code:
    YEAR	TEAM	AB	R	BB	AVG	SLG	OBA	OPS
    1988	Red Sox	584	128	125	0.366	0.49	0.476	0.965
    1989	Red Sox	621	113	107	0.33	0.449	0.43	0.879
    1986	Red Sox	580	107	105	0.357	0.486	0.453	0.939
    1987	Red Sox	551	108	105	0.363	0.588	0.461	1.049
    1985	Red Sox	653	107	96	0.368	0.478	0.45	0.928
    1983	Red Sox	582	100	92	0.361	0.486	0.444	0.931
    1984	Red Sox	625	109	89	0.325	0.416	0.407	0.823
    1991	Red Sox	546	93	89	0.332	0.46	0.421	0.881
    1990	Red Sox	619	89	87	0.302	0.418	0.386	0.804
    1992	Red Sox	514	62	74	0.259	0.358	0.353	0.711
    1993	Yankees	560	83	74	0.302	0.363	0.378	0.74
    1995	Yankees	460	76	74	0.324	0.422	0.412	0.834
    1996	Yankees	501	80	67	0.311	0.389	0.389	0.778
    1994	Yankees	366	61	61	0.342	0.489	0.433	0.922
    1997	Yankees	353	55	48	0.292	0.397	0.373	0.769
    1998	Rays	435	51	46	0.28	0.4	0.348	0.748
    1999	Rays	292	40	38	0.301	0.377	0.377	0.754
    1982	Red Sox	338	51	35	0.349	0.441	0.406	0.847
    								
    YEAR	TEAM	AB	R	BB	AVG	SLG	OBA	OPS
    1978	Twins	564	85	78	0.333	0.441	0.411	0.853
    1974	Twins	599	86	74	0.364	0.446	0.433	0.879
    1979	Angels	409	78	73	0.318	0.391	0.419	0.81
    1977	Twins	616	128	69	0.388	0.57	0.449	1.019
    1976	Twins	605	97	67	0.331	0.463	0.395	0.858
    1982	Angels	523	88	67	0.319	0.403	0.396	0.799
    1975	Twins	535	89	64	0.359	0.497	0.421	0.919
    1985	Angels	443	69	64	0.28	0.345	0.371	0.717
    1973	Twins	580	98	62	0.35	0.471	0.411	0.881
    1980	Angels	540	74	59	0.331	0.437	0.396	0.833
    1983	Angels	472	66	57	0.339	0.411	0.409	0.82
    1971	Twins	577	88	45	0.307	0.38	0.356	0.736
    1981	Angels	364	57	45	0.305	0.374	0.38	0.753
    1972	Twins	535	61	43	0.318	0.379	0.369	0.749
    1984	Angels	329	42	40	0.295	0.353	0.367	0.72
    1967	Twins	514	66	37	0.292	0.409	0.341	0.75
    1969	Twins	458	79	37	0.332	0.467	0.386	0.853
    1968	Twins	461	46	26	0.273	0.347	0.312	0.659
    1970	Twins	191	27	11	0.366	0.524	0.407	0.93
    								
    YEAR	TEAM	AB	R	BB	AVG	SLG	OBA	OPS
    1987	Padres	589	119	82	0.37	0.511	0.447	0.958
    1984	Padres	606	88	59	0.351	0.444	0.41	0.853
    1989	Padres	604	82	56	0.336	0.424	0.389	0.813
    1986	Padres	642	107	52	0.329	0.467	0.381	0.848
    1988	Padres	521	64	51	0.313	0.415	0.373	0.787
    1994	Padres	419	79	48	0.394	0.568	0.454	1.022
    1992	Padres	520	77	46	0.317	0.415	0.371	0.786
    1985	Padres	622	90	45	0.317	0.408	0.364	0.773
    1990	Padres	573	79	44	0.309	0.415	0.357	0.772
    1997	Padres	592	97	43	0.372	0.547	0.409	0.957
    1996	Padres	451	67	39	0.353	0.441	0.4	0.842
    1993	Padres	489	70	36	0.358	0.497	0.398	0.895
    1995	Padres	535	82	35	0.368	0.484	0.404	0.888
    1998	Padres	461	65	35	0.321	0.501	0.364	0.865
    1991	Padres	530	69	34	0.317	0.432	0.355	0.787
    1999	Padres	411	59	29	0.338	0.477	0.381	0.858
    1983	Padres	304	34	23	0.309	0.372	0.355	0.726
    1982	Padres	190	33	14	0.289	0.389	0.337	0.726
    2001	Padres	102	5	10	0.324	0.461	0.384	0.845
    2000	Padres	127	17	9	0.323	0.441	0.364	0.805
    Last edited by westofyou; 11-14-2013 at 06:25 PM.

  12. Likes:

    Fil3232 (11-14-2013), joshua (11-15-2013), Larkin Fan (11-15-2013)

  13. #38
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Shelburne Falls, MA
    Posts
    10,129

    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Every hitter has a hot zone, pitches they know they can crush. And every hitter also has a hit zone, pitches they know they can turn into singles at a high rate. As with all of hitting, the good ones know how to recognize one from the other, and react accordingly.
    But then of course, good pitching beats good hitting.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  14. #39
    They call me "chef"
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    938

    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    There's a reason why Sean Casey, Tony Gwynn, Rod Carew, Wade Boggs all has high OBP and low SLG, for their size. They made a choice to value reaching base over slugging. They accomplished that by swinging at pitches sluggers wouldn't have, and turning them into singles at a high rate. They took advantage of meatballs to crush when they saw them, but they didn't wait for them. They took the first pitch they saw that they knew they could handle, and turned it into a single whenever possible.

    Every hitter has a hot zone, pitches they know they can crush. And every hitter also has a hit zone, pitches they know they can turn into singles at a high rate. As with all of hitting, the good ones know how to recognize one from the other, and react accordingly.
    If Votto swings at 10-20 more home run pitches a year, he'd be a perennial 40-55 home run hitter. That's an extra 10-80 RBIs a year. Instead he is swinging at mostly single, double, and out pitches, and then the occasional home run pitch. It makes no sense.
    Cincinnati Reds 2014 W-L Record: 76.6-85.4*

    Cincinnati Reds 2015 W-L Record: TBA

    *UPDATED: 2/11/2014

  15. Likes:

    The Operator (11-14-2013)

  16. #40
    Member 757690's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dayton
    Posts
    10,563

    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Sean Casey doesn't belong in the same conversation as those three from my vantage point.

    I'll also point out that both Carew and Boggs (and most of Gwynns) best seasons came when they piled up their highest BB totals.
    Casey belongs because he's a big guy who chose to be a singles hitter. He had the same approach as those guys, he just wasn't as good at it.

    And talking walks and being a singles hitter actually go hand in hand, so. I'm not sure what your point is.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  17. #41
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    42,820

    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Casey belongs because he's a big guy who chose to be a singles hitter. He had the same approach as those guys, he just wasn't as good at it.

    And talking walks and being a singles hitter actually go hand in hand, so. I'm not sure what your point is.
    My point is that some years they "appear" more selective due to increased walk numbers and they also appear to be the years that they increased their production.

    Add in the fact that they all (Not Casey) had 450-578 doubles and 60-115 triples and I'd say calling them "singles" hitters is somewhat incorrect.

  18. #42
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Cincinnati/Athens
    Posts
    654

    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Not at all.

    There are pitches that are very hittable, but aren't perfect pitches. Sometimes a hitter needs to swing at less than perfect pitches.
    So go outside of his zone?
    "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

  19. #43
    Member 757690's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dayton
    Posts
    10,563

    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    My point is that some years they "appear" more selective due to increased walk numbers and they also appear to be the years that they increased their production.

    Add in the fact that they all (Not Casey) had 450-578 doubles and 60-115 triples and I'd say calling them "singles" hitters is somewhat incorrect.
    Yeah, its a bad term. I'd prefer high OBP guys. Like I said, they slug when given the opportunity. All hitter have to hit XBH's, but some will take a single first, if given the opportunity, and not wait for a pitch to slug.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  20. #44
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Cincy West
    Posts
    5,061

    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbachunk View Post
    So go outside of his zone?
    Never

    A very smart man (whom I've never met, but have grown to respect and frequents this place, often) once opined that Joey needs to trust his swing as much as he trusts his eyes (and he has the best eyes in the game). In other words, driving more balls in the zone, the ones he intuitively knows he can handle.

    Joey Votto is the best player the Reds have had since Barry Larkin. Let's surround him with more good hitters.

  21. Likes:

    HeatherC1212 (11-15-2013)

  22. #45
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    7,594

    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    If Votto swings at 10-20 more home run pitches a year, he'd be a perennial 40-55 home run hitter. That's an extra 10-80 RBIs a year. Instead he is swinging at mostly single, double, and out pitches, and then the occasional home run pitch. It makes no sense.
    I absolutely love you.

    Were you another poster previously? If that's the case, this alt identity is phenomenal.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25