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Thread: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

  1. #46
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Yeah, its a bad term. I'd prefer high OBP guys. Like I said, they slug when given the opportunity. All hitter have to hit XBH's, but some will take a single first, if given the opportunity, and not wait for a pitch to slug.
    You just described Joey Votto.

    I don't get it.

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  4. #47
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Paul Goldschmidt drove in 125 runs. He swung at 62.4% of pitches in the zone.

    Joey Votto drove in 73 runs. He swung at 61.6% of pitches in the zone.

    In 2011, Votto drove in 103 runs in 2011 when he swung at 62.8% of pitches in the zone.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  5. #48
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by Fil3232 View Post
    You just described Joey Votto.

    I don't get it.
    Not last year in high leverage situations. But before that, yeah. Now it might be that he simply didn't see enough hittable pitches, but his BA was significantly lower than normal last year in those situations when a base hit was most beneficial.

    And again, I'm really not talking about Votto. I've never had a problem with his approach. I'm just talking about hitters in general.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  6. #49
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Paul Goldschmidt drove in 125 runs. He swung at 62.4% of pitches in the zone.

    Joey Votto drove in 73 runs. He swung at 61.6% of pitches in the zone.

    In 2011, Votto drove in 103 runs in 2011 when he swung at 62.8% of pitches in the zone.
    Not all pitches in the strike zone are pitches that are in a hitters zone. In fact, most strikes aren't.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  7. #50
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Not all pitches in the strike zone are pitches that are in a hitters zone. In fact, most strikes aren't.
    And a hitter should not swing at those pitches because they are out of his zone.
    "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

  8. #51
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    It's usually the people who have never played professional baseball who complain the loudest about players who walk too much. They just don't seem to realize that baseball is hard.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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  10. #52
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Votto has the best career batting average of any Reds player that anyone on this board has ever seen. He's first all-time on the team OB list and second all-time on the team SLG list. He is, in short, the most dangerous player at the plate in franchise history.

    If what you want is a guy who hits 40 HR every year like clockwork, then the Reds need to get that guy and add him to Votto. Though the last guy the team had with that kind of power caused no shortage of arguments.
    Not at all what I said. And you bring up career numbers -- which are outstanding, as you note -- when we're talking about a dropoff last season. His OBP was great, but it was walk and single-driven. He was a different hitter this season -- still great, but different. He had more plate appearances than he has ever had, but managed just 57 extra-base hits. That matches his career low set in 2008 when he had 137 fewer PAs. He had more extra-base hits last year when he only played 111 games and finished the season as a one-legged slap-hitter.

    There are two ways to look at the selectivity thing. 1 - The player is a table-setter and his goal is to get on base in front of the middle of the order. The best of these types of hitters augment that ability with speed. 2 - The player is a run-producer and his goal is to identify a pitch to drive. Votto has always been the second type, but this season he performed more like the first type. I've said this many times -- the question is whether it was an aberration or if this is the new normal.

    Both types are valuable, but the Reds pretty clearly believed they were getting the second type when they gave Votto his contract.

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  12. #53
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Paul Goldschmidt drove in 125 runs. He swung at 62.4% of pitches in the zone.

    Joey Votto drove in 73 runs. He swung at 61.6% of pitches in the zone.

    In 2011, Votto drove in 103 runs in 2011 when he swung at 62.8% of pitches in the zone.
    In 2013 Joey Votto saw 3033, 1674 of those being strikes. If you use the 1% difference, Votto looked at roughly 16 more pitches in the zone than he did in his 2011 season. If you look back to his MVP season the numbers are even more drastic. He isn't seeing as many strikes, but he isn't swinging at as many strikes either. One thing that I found pretty striking, in 2010 Votto swung at 47% if all pitches. In 2013 he swung at 39% of all pitches.

    One thing of note in 2013, his strike out looking percentage was 32%, higher than any time in his career. Also there appeared to be a change in 2012 where he wasn't swinging at as many pitches. His career average is 43% and the last two years were 36% and 39% respectively. Looking at the numbers it appears as if there was a subtle change to Votto's game starting in 2012. I don't know if that started with his knee injury or started at the beginning of the season.

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  14. #54
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    I've said this many times -- the question is whether it was an aberration or if this is the new normal.
    I agree with that. The Votto of 2013 was still extremely valuable, just in a little different way. I don't think it's unreasonable for the Reds to wonder what to expect from him going forward, and if he's going to contribute more to "get them on" than "get them in," relatively speaking, to maybe adjust his spot in the batting order to make better use of it. Personally, I would love to see him hitting #2.
    Not all who wander are lost

  15. #55
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    NL MVP

    1st Place: Andrew McCutchen, Pittsburgh Pirates
    2nd Place: Paul Goldschmidt, Arizona Diamondbacks
    3rd Place: Joey Votto, Cincinnati Reds
    4th Place: Freddie Freeman, Atlanta Braves
    5th Place: Matt Carpenter, St. Louis Cardinals
    6th Place: Clayton Kershaw, Los Angeles Dodgers
    7th Place: Yadier Molina, St. Louis Cardinals
    8th Place: Carlos Gonzalez, Colorado Rockies
    9th Place: Hanley Ramirez, Los Angeles Dodgers
    10th Place: Adrian Gonzalez, Los Angeles Dodgers

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  17. #56
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    NL MVP

    1st Place: Andrew McCutchen, Pittsburgh Pirates
    2nd Place: Paul Goldschmidt, Arizona Diamondbacks
    3rd Place: Joey Votto, Cincinnati Reds
    4th Place: Freddie Freeman, Atlanta Braves
    5th Place: Matt Carpenter, St. Louis Cardinals
    6th Place: Clayton Kershaw, Los Angeles Dodgers
    7th Place: Yadier Molina, St. Louis Cardinals
    8th Place: Carlos Gonzalez, Colorado Rockies
    9th Place: Hanley Ramirez, Los Angeles Dodgers
    10th Place: Adrian Gonzalez, Los Angeles Dodgers
    He should have been 1st in both the NL and AL.
    Cincinnati Reds 2014 W-L Record: 76.6-85.4*

    Cincinnati Reds 2015 W-L Record: TBA

    *UPDATED: 2/11/2014

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  19. #57
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He should have been 1st in both the NL and AL.
    He should also have won last years Heisman, Miss Universe and the Lotto on 9-18-13

  20. #58
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    I agree with that. The Votto of 2013 was still extremely valuable, just in a little different way. I don't think it's unreasonable for the Reds to wonder what to expect from him going forward, and if he's going to contribute more to "get them on" than "get them in," relatively speaking, to maybe adjust his spot in the batting order to make better use of it. Personally, I would love to see him hitting #2.
    Except weren't his results this year more the result of the players around him than his own efforts? RBI ("get 'em in") depend on having guys on. Votto and Goldschmidt were actually quite similar in what they did themselves last year -- with different RBI outcomes.

    I don't mind moving Votto to 2nd, mind you. I just don't think his RBI outcomes should be the reason it happens.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Except weren't his results this year more the result of the players around him than his own efforts? RBI ("get 'em in") depend on having guys on. Votto and Goldschmidt were actually quite similar in what they did themselves last year -- with different RBI outcomes.

    I don't mind moving Votto to 2nd, mind you. I just don't think his RBI outcomes should be the reason it happens.
    The original post didn't mention RBI at all.

  22. #60
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Except weren't his results this year more the result of the players around him than his own efforts? RBI ("get 'em in") depend on having guys on. Votto and Goldschmidt were actually quite similar in what they did themselves last year -- with different RBI outcomes.

    I don't mind moving Votto to 2nd, mind you. I just don't think his RBI outcomes should be the reason it happens.
    I'm high on a Votto bounce back, but the concern isn't really RBI.

    Code:
    Year	AB	XBH	%
    2009	469	64	13.65%
    2010	547	75	13.71%
    2011	599	72	12.02%
    2012	374	58	15.51%
    2013	581	57	9.81%
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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