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Thread: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

  1. #61
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    There have been plenty of "bad ball" hitters throughout the years in the game. Clemente was a great bad ball hitter I agree with Chip, most hitters don't like you messing with them and you have to gain trust. A little tip here or there to help out, and trying to keep confidence high is the best a hitting coach is going to hope for. Making them think they figured it out on their own is one of the best tricks a hitting coach, or any coach for that matter, can have. You don't overhaul major league hitters. Those swing habits are ingrained over a lot of years and that swing certainly got them to the big leagues. There are tinkerers. Cal Ripken was one of them, but basically being able to recognize the hitters natural swing and being able to get them back to the things they do well is basically the job. Noticing the little things. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. if it is broke, make them think they fixed it themselves.
    No, there have not been "plenty" of bad ball hitters. There have been a few....and even that is. ot much of a repeatable skill...

    If there were plenty, the league would not suck as a whole in hitting bad balls.

    Year after year....

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  3. #62
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Disagree. Most of the time, bad ball hitters are the same guys that hit good pitches well.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
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  4. #63
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    The original post didn't mention RBI at all.
    I know, but doesn't "get 'em in" usually refer to RBI? Maybe I misunderstood.
    "I’ll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. That’s just how I do things.” -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  5. #64
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    Disagree. Most of the time, bad ball hitters are the same guys that hit good pitches well.
    If they didn't hit good pitches well, they wouldn't be called bad ball hitters. They'd be called bad hitters.

    I've often wondered if the ability to get hits off bad pitches is really a positive trait, or if it may be negative, or most likely a wash. It's easy to remember a positive outcome when we see a guy swing at a pitch most hitters wouldn't get to and get a hit, but I wonder if we do so at the expense of easily forgetting the negative outcomes they have had in other instances when they've swung at bad pitches. Are they more likely to strike out, for example? Or even worse, do they have a higher number of GIDP than other hitters? Do the negatives of striking out or GIDP cancel out getting some extra hits from swinging at bad balls? I don't know these answers, but I'd be interested in finding out if someone has research on this.

    That's not to say that bad ball hitters aren't good baseball players. I'm just wondering if having this skill is necessarily better or worse than being a selective hitter. It may be a wash, in which case it may be one of those things where you have to take the good with the bad.

    I agree that it's probably not going to work out well if you try to "fix" a hitter at the major league level. Trying to make a bad ball hitter be more selective probably won't work out well. Likewise, asking a selective hitter to swing at more pitches out of the zone probably isn't going to work well either. But if they are a productive batter, why worry? Take them for what they are and solve the problems like RBIs by surrounding them with more productive teammates.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

  6. #65
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    It has been my experience that thinking and hitting does not work. Guys that can hit, well…... they just can.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

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    Old school 1983 (11-16-2013)

  8. #66
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    It has been my experience that thinking and hitting does not work. Guys that can hit, well…... they just can.
    I think you're right about that. Hitting is more about hand/eye coordination, muscle memory, and reflexes. I think that if you want a player to perform a certain role on your team or abide by a certain philosophy, it's better to have the GM go out and get players that fit the role or the philosophy rather than trying to force an existing player on the roster into doing something he can't. A good lineup construction accentuates the strengths of each player and minimizes weaknesses through having players with complimentary talents. The last thing you want is to have players overthinking things because they have to fill a role for which they are unsuited. Leave the thinking to the managers and coaches.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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    joshua (11-29-2013), RANDY IN INDY (11-16-2013)

  10. #67
    Member Old school 1983's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    As far as walks versus hits, when a player collects more hits than usual in a season as well as draws more walks, could the increase in walks be due to being pitched around more because of the greater threat of a hit rather than being more selective at what to swing at? Early in the year it seemed like votto was getting straight pitched around. He didn't have to be selective. He was getting obvious balls that couldn't have much done with them. As the year went on it appeared if pitchers were challenging votto more, and he wasn't punishing the pitches I've seen him punish in the past. That may lead to less walks because of the decreased threat of a power hit as seen by his lower isolated power number in 2013. My point being if votto does t make pitchers pay through power as he has in years previous to 2013, then pitchers may go after him more and the walk totals will decrease.

  11. #68
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    Disagree. Most of the time, bad ball hitters are the same guys that hit good pitches well.
    What's the league average against bad pitches?

  12. #69
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Actually I'm arguing the wrong point. Just because there are a few bad ball hitters does not mean Votto should become one.

    Sure it's been posted: http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/stor...scipline-walks

  13. #70
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I'm high on a Votto bounce back, but the concern isn't really RBI.

    Code:
    YearABXBH%
    20094696413.65%
    20105477513.71%
    20115997212.02%
    20123745815.51%
    2013581579.81%
    Ah, so the concern is power then. Got it. But wasn't power down across the league?
    "I’ll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. That’s just how I do things.” -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  14. #71
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    As far as walks versus hits, when a player collects more hits than usual in a season as well as draws more walks, could the increase in walks be due to being pitched around more because of the greater threat of a hit rather than being more selective at what to swing at? Early in the year it seemed like votto was getting straight pitched around. He didn't have to be selective. He was getting obvious balls that couldn't have much done with them. As the year went on it appeared if pitchers were challenging votto more, and he wasn't punishing the pitches I've seen him punish in the past. That may lead to less walks because of the decreased threat of a power hit as seen by his lower isolated power number in 2013. My point being if votto does t make pitchers pay through power as he has in years previous to 2013, then pitchers may go after him more and the walk totals will decrease.
    There could be a lot of factors involved. It was Votto's first full year coming off a major injury. He also had Brandon Phillips hitting behind him most of the season. I say we see what happens in the next few seasons. A full season away from injury and maybe a more fearsome bat behind him and just maybe Votto puts up numbers equal to or better than previous seasons. If the Reds want to improve their offense, I hope they focus on elsewhere in the lineup first rather than trying to put more of the onus on Votto to do better. Baseball history is filled with Hall of Fame players who failed to win a World Series because the front office failed to find the right players to compliment that Hall of Famer. There are also teams with no Hall of Famers who won it all because the front office assembled a team where the whole was greater than the sum of its parts.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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    joshua (11-29-2013)

  16. #72
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Except weren't his results this year more the result of the players around him than his own efforts? RBI ("get 'em in") depend on having guys on. Votto and Goldschmidt were actually quite similar in what they did themselves last year -- with different RBI outcomes.

    I don't mind moving Votto to 2nd, mind you. I just don't think his RBI outcomes should be the reason it happens.
    In 2011, Votto had 103 RBI's.
    The Reds #1-2 hitters had an average .330 OBP
    The Reds #4-5 hitters had an average .756 OPS

    In 2013, Votto had 73 RBI's.
    The Reds #1-2 hitters had an average .350 OBP
    The Reds #4-5 hitters had an average .753 OPS
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  17. #73
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    Actually I'm arguing the wrong point. Just because there are a few bad ball hitters does not mean Votto should become one.

    Sure it's been posted: http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/stor...scipline-walks
    Who is arguing that he should, Dom? Some guys are adept at hitting certain pitches that are not in the defined zone, whatever that is today. Few are adept at hitting all areas of the zone or all areas around the zone. I honestly think that part of the problem with some hitters approach these days is that the umpires have reduced the strike zone to a very small box. There certainly is reason to not be as aggressive. Open up the strike zone to its true definition and you'll see a different, faster moving game that will be much easier on pitchers arms. Hitters would have to swing the bat more. I'm sure the majority of Redszone posters will disagree with me and it is just my opinion.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

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    joshua (11-29-2013)

  19. #74
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Ah, so the concern is power then. Got it. But wasn't power down across the league?
    What in the heck did you do to my table?

    League average slugging percentage dropped from .405 in 2012 to .396 in 2013, total drop 9 points.

    Joey Votto dropped from .567 in 2012 to .491 in 2013, total drop 76 points. His 2013 slugging was 40 points lower than 2011, 109 points lower than 2010, 76 points lower than 2009. Even 2008, when Votto was still a mere mortal, his slugging percentage was 15 points higher than his 2013 figure (but the league was 20 points higher in 2008).

    I think the drop in extra base hits was fairly significant.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  20. #75
    Member Old school 1983's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Poz on Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    There could be a lot of factors involved. It was Votto's first full year coming off a major injury. He also had Brandon Phillips hitting behind him most of the season. I say we see what happens in the next few seasons. A full season away from injury and maybe a more fearsome bat behind him and just maybe Votto puts up numbers equal to or better than previous seasons. If the Reds want to improve their offense, I hope they focus on elsewhere in the lineup first rather than trying to put more of the onus on Votto to do better. Baseball history is filled with Hall of Fame players who failed to win a World Series because the front office failed to find the right players to compliment that Hall of Famer. There are also teams with no Hall of Famers who won it all because the front office assembled a team where the whole was greater than the sum of its parts.
    I completely agree that the front office can help votto the most by putting better players around him than telling him to completely overhaul his approach. I saw him just miss a ton of pitches in 2013 that he usually hits hard and drives. Hopefully it was just a down year or he was still coming back from the knee surgery. But honestly IMO if the front office asks votto to overhaul his approach and does not upgrade around him, then they are looking for an easy way out.


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