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Thread: Erardi's Trade

  1. #31
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Eradi's Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by LoganBuck View Post
    He won't start. He is a closer now. The Reds can't afford the allocation of talent at the back of the bullpen.
    He will be a starter in spring training. He may have to move back to the bullpen, but unless you know something that Walt Jocketty and Bryan Proce don't, I don't see how that statement is true.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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  3. #32
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: Eradi's Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    He will be a starter in spring training. He may have to move back to the bullpen, but unless you know something that Walt Jocketty and Bryan Proce don't, I don't see how that statement is true.
    Erardi discussed that today. I agree with his stance. Chapman doesn't want to start. If his heart isn't in it, it won't be worth doing.
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

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  5. #33
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Eradi's Trade

    I don't mind this deal, but I would be really, really disappointed if the Reds never try Chapman as a starter.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  6. #34
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    Re: Eradi's Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by LoganBuck View Post
    Erardi discussed that today. I agree with his stance. Chapman doesn't want to start. If his heart isn't in it, it won't be worth doing.
    Show him the difference between what that an average MLB starting pitching makes in salary and what a closer makes, and he'll have a change of heart, lol.

    Seriously, though, that a huge assumption based on very little evidence. Not nearly enough there to influence the decision to trade him, nor his trade value.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: Eradi's Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by LoganBuck View Post
    Erardi discussed that today. I agree with his stance. Chapman doesn't want to start. If his heart isn't in it, it won't be worth doing.
    If he doesn't want to start, then the Reds need to trade him

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  10. #36
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    Re: Eradi's Trade

    I, for one, would be satisfied with Chapman continuing in the bullpen if he insists on it. I don't oppose him starting. But I don't think it's essential.

    He can be very valuable in the bullpen.

    The problem I see is that Baker was quite rigid in his use of Aroldis. There really is no excuse for his failure to pitch during the last week or so of the season.

    Aroldis could be used as closer, but he'd have a backup or co-closer.

    And Aroldis also gets used in other leverage spots and pitching multiple innings at times. Not just one-inning closing stints.

    I'm ok with that. Having a dynamite pitcher for closing and other important spots, who can work multiple innings, has a lot of value. It spearheads the bullpen which I think is important.
    Last edited by Kc61; 11-17-2013 at 04:03 PM.

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  12. #37
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    Re: Eradi's Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by LoganBuck View Post
    Erardi discussed that today. I agree with his stance. Chapman doesn't want to start. If his heart isn't in it, it won't be worth doing.
    2 years ago there were quotes from Chapman saying he wanted to be a starter rather than going to the pen.

    Regardless, you can't let players decide where, when and how they want to play. If he refuses to start, ship him out. Same goes every other player in the organization.

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  14. #38
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    Re: Eradi's Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyInTheBank View Post
    If he doesn't want to start, then the Reds need to trade him
    If that's the case, then they need to trade him to someone who wants to start him, or agree that his trade value is that of a starting pitcher, not a closer. Trading him and getting back what a closer would bring like in the case of the this suggested trade, defeats the purpose do trading him. Might as well keep him as the Reds closer if all you get for him is a #5 starter and a prospect.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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  16. #39
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    Re: Eradi's Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    2 years ago there were quotes from Chapman saying he wanted to be a starter rather than going to the pen.

    Regardless, you can't let players decide where, when and how they want to play. If he refuses to start, ship him out. Same goes every other player in the organization.
    Chapman never said he only wants to close anyway. He said if given the choice, he prefers closing, but he would start if that was best for the team. That whole quote was blown way out of proportion, mostly by Baker (who might have told,hi to say it). I love how Reds fans know what's in Chapman's heart.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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  18. #40
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    Re: Eradi's Trade

    I expect at least three deals this winter.

    1. Built around one of Bailey, Cueto or Chapman
    2. Built around Phillips
    3. Built around Hanigan

    Of course two of these could be combined for one larger deal

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    Re: Eradi's Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    If that's the case, then they need to trade him to someone who wants to start him, or agree that his trade value is that of a starting pitcher, not a closer. Trading him and getting back what a closer would bring like in the case of the this suggested trade, defeats the purpose do trading him. Might as well keep him as the Reds closer if all you get for him is a #5 starter and a prospect.
    His value is his value. You can't just shop him to teams as a starter then as a closer. What they do with him is their business. I never said or suggested that they trade him for whatever they can get. The trade would have to make sense.

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  22. #42
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    Re: Eradi's Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    Regardless, you can't let players decide where, when and how they want to play. If he refuses to start, ship him out. Same goes every other player in the organization.
    Exactly. If I'm Castellini the way I look at it is I paid $36 million dollars for a starter and I'm not letting some 22-year old kid throw that money down the drain.

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  24. #43
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    Re: Eradi's Trade

    Just looking at the players involved, why do t the reds try sending BP and Y rod to Detroit for porcello or smyly? Then that creates the pitching depth to make a further move. If we trade a pitcher of a cueto chapman or bailey caliber I look no farther than the twins. It's no secret that they are looking for top pitching and have a loaded farm system. If BP can grab some pitching depth, and hanigan can grab a second base prospect like beckham, then I think the reds would be set if they could trade one of their top pitchers to the twins for a buxton sano or Meyer. Preferably a buxton or sano. Let's just say sano. He may be ready by the end of this year. If not we go with a third base platoon and there's monster power there in 2015. I like the thought around the proposed trade to Detroit, but I think we may be able to grab more talent for a pitcher the caliber of a chapman cueto or bailey elsewhere.

    Looking at the whole deal it seems castellanos will probably put up around the same numbers as ludwick in the majors in 2014 so he becomes redundant. Yes he'll get under more years of control but at that point Ervin and winker will be ready and IMO they may his equal so that part if a deal for chapman seems to be a waste for pieces well have equals to anyway.

    As far as porcello, he'd be a solid # 4 or 5 starter for the reds and allow them to trade chapman and or bailey, but bailey is better anyway and IMO chapmans floor as a starter ranges from porcellos ceiling to mid level. So really. He's not worth chapman. Chapman has way more potential. Plus why would Detroit give up one of their top prospects and a 3-5 starter for a closer when the free agent closer market is thick? Bc chapman is a super elite closer with super elite stuff who may became to start. He's of more value to the reds than a 3to 5ish starter and a guy who we have a veteran cover for in 2014 and our own prospects to cover for after that?

    That brings us to Jackson. He's a very solid player, but is only necessary if you consider cf a major hole with Hamilton. But I don't if the reds can bring in solid pieces elsewhere, but this deal really doesn't make a huge improvement anywhere aside from maybe cf and that could be arguable when taking entire game into account. It seriously weakens our closer. Probably weakens the rotation adds a piece that'd probably be no better than our current LF (especially if a platoon is brought in with him) as well as filled later by our own prospects, and makes the biggest upgrade at a position where we have Hamilton in 2014 and the option of Ervin probably a year to year and a half later. I think my idea of a deal with Detroit invoking Phillips to grab starting depth so the reds can go after a prospect like sano to fill a real spot of need rather than seeing issues at positions like cf where people under estimate the run creating potential of hamiltons speed bc of his lower obp
    Last edited by Old school 1983; 11-17-2013 at 06:47 PM.

  25. #44
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    Re: Eradi's Trade

    I really like the originally proposed trade. I don't know if the Tigers would do it, but as a Reds fan, I love it. I just don't see Chapman becoming an effective starter before his current contract expires. He's still extremely useful out of the bullpen, but his perceived value is higher than his actual value when he's only tossing about 70 innings per season. Phillips still has some value, but his contract is simply too long, and the Reds can't afford to pay for his impending decline.

    Austin Jackson isn't anything special, but he gets on base at a decent clip and plays a solid center field. There's value there, and he'd look great hitting second in front of Votto. Castellanos is a top prospect. He can play 3B or LF, and has a bat that should play at either position. There's always risk with prospects, but Castellanos is a better bet than most. Finally, Porcello is very average, but he's really just the kicker in this deal. Plus, getting him frees the Reds to deal Bailey or Leake for yet another offensive upgrade.

    In short this deal would be a dream from my prespective.

  26. #45
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Eradi's Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Thanks for elaborating, but I now hate this trade more than ever.

    First, the Reds need is offense. You are trading Chapman and Bailey. Where is the offensive improvement?

    Second, if you look at Hoover's fly ball and LD rates, and low ground ball rate, and include his relatively high walk rate, I see a closer with issues.

    Third, with Hamilton soon ready to play centerfield, why trade a boatload of talent for a CFer? So that Hamilton can now once again be converted, this time to second?

    Fourth, to add insult to injury, the extra cash would be used for re-signing current pitchers. So no offensive upgrade there. Except maybe a future prospect.

    Really do not like this trade idea at all.
    Where you and others are going wrong is you are comparing the improvement from a baseline that no longer exists. The Reds aren't going to acquire a bat that will be an improvement over Choo, but acquiring Jackson is a huge improvement offensively over the guys on the roster right now. The rest of the improvement is going to have to come at other positions. Some will be from within like we hope we'll see in LF with a full year of Ludwick, the rest is going to require other acquisitions, probably for other prospects who can now be moved with added near ready prospects on board and payroll room available to actually acquire the guys they could net. Maybe they repackage Castellanos for a guy like Aramis Ramirez. Or maybe they package Y-Rod and a couple arms for somebody because now they'll be out from under the long term Phillips deal and may actually be able to sign one of the 2015 free agents.

    This isn't going to get fixed in one deal and unless they add cheap young talent, lower the cost of a bloated bullpen and dump some questionable long term commitments, they won't be able to do much else.

    BTW, I'm not trading Chapman and Bailey. I'm trading Chapman and Phillips. Bailey is firmly in the 2014 rotation.
    Last edited by mth123; 11-17-2013 at 07:12 PM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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