Erardi's Trade

[mth123]

I, for one, would be satisfied with Chapman continuing in the bullpen if he insists on it. I don't oppose him starting. But I don't think it's essential.

He can be very valuable in the bullpen.

The problem I see is that Baker was quite rigid in his use of Aroldis. There really is no excuse for his failure to pitch during the last week or so of the season.

Aroldis could be used as closer, but he'd have a backup or co-closer.

And Aroldis also gets used in other leverage spots and pitching multiple innings at times. Not just one-inning closing stints.

I'm ok with that. Having a dynamite pitcher for closing and other important spots, who can work multiple innings, has a lot of value. It spearheads the bullpen which I think is important.

I'd be more ok with that than what's going on now, but does any manager use his closer that way other than in extreme circumstances?

[Old school 1983]

People can call the bullpen bloated old and expensive but I'd take Marshall broxton and chapman over parra lecure and Hoover everyday. Bullpens win games bullpens win championships. Weak bullpens blow those. Hoover could put up decent save totals but he is no where near the caliber of chapman stuffwise. Not even close. No one player will replace choo, but grabbing mediocre and redundant parts for an all star gold glove second basemen and a guy that's near the top closer in the game with starting potential isn't smart. Choos production won't be made up instantly, but I think Choos numbers look way shinier than what he actually brought last year due to his league bottom CF D and his inability to hit lefties. In any tight game he becomes a non factor late because of the loogy and a defensive detriment. If we trade a chapman for a prospect get one that covers a position of need with plus ability. Idk much about castellanos besides his numbers but they look like they translate into something that could be had for less. Plus in a year or so our prospects may very well be a better option. Seems like a waste if chapman. I'd look into Phillips and a prospect for a pitcher so that a guy like bailey who might not come back or cueto with a recent injury history but still valued could be moved for pieces that could help more. Not for pieces that are stopgaps 4-5 starters and a prospect that very well could become redundant with ours in a small amount of time.

[757690]

Where you and others are going wrong is you are comparing the improvement from a baseline that no longer exists. The Reds aren't going to acquire a bat that will be an improvement over Choo, but acquiring Jackson is a huge improvement offensively over the guys on the roster right now. The rest of the improvement is going to have to come at other positions. Some will be from within like we hope we'll see in LF with a full year of Ludwick, the rest is going to require other acquisitions, probably for other prospects who can now be moved with added near ready prospects on board and payroll room available to actually acquire the guys they could net. Maybe they repackage Castellanos for a guy like Aramis Ramirez. Or maybe they package Y-Rod and a couple arms for somebody because now they'll be out from under the long term Phillips deal and may actually be able to sign one of the 2015 free agents.

This isn't going to get fixed in one deal and unless they add cheap young talent, lower the cost of a bloated bullpen and dump some questionable long term commitments, they won't be able to do much else.

BTW, I'm not trading Chapman and Bailey. I'm trading Chapman and Phillips. Bailey is firmly in the 2014 rotation.

If you are trading Phillips and Chapman, you should easily be able to get back an elite player like Choo. If you don't, you don't trade them.

[RedTeamGo!]

Brandon Phillips and Aroldis Chapman for Rick Porcello, Austin Jackson and Nick Castellanos.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2...PT04/311160062

I think this could be a great deal for both sides. And I agree with his assertion that sometimes Hot Stove is better than the actual season.

This would be a massive steal for the reds. No way DD would go for this, he's no dummy.

[Old school 1983]

If you are trading Phillips and Chapman, you should easily be able to get back an elite player like Choo. If you don't, you don't trade them.

Exactly. RZ tends to under rate the value of the closer. An average closer is easily replaceable but a guy with chapmans talent is not. The fact the CF is an issue is debatable. There have been guys with extreme speed that have scored close to 100 runs in a season with a low OBP. Idk much about castellanos but judging from his AAA numbers, he'll be a solid player, but not a superstar. I just think chapman and Phillips could fetch way more than a stopgap a bottom of the rotation starter and a guy who probably won't bring a huge improvement anywhere and would be replaceable by our own guys shortly. Trade those guys get an elite guy or a super elite prospect. If the reds want to trade prospects for pitching contact the twins.

[marcshoe]

He won't start. He is a closer now. The Reds can't afford the allocation of talent at the back of the bullpen.

I keep seeing people say that the ship has sailed on making Chapman a starter, but if anyone has given a good reason why, I've missed it, which is possible.

[kpresidente]

I don't understand people that think Chapman can't start. He look like the second coming of Randy Johnson to me. Secondary pitches? He has a fantastic slider, he just doesn't throw it because he doesn't have to as a closer. Johnson made a HOF career out of a 98 MPH fastball and a slider. Plus it's not like he's never started...He started 65 games in Cuba.

[nate1213]

I keep seeing people say that the ship has sailed on making Chapman a starter, but if anyone has given a good reason why, I've missed it, which is possible.

The way I see it, we won't get a full season out of Chapman if he starts in 2014. I just see more value that we could get in a return from him then having around 140 innings from him this year, and around 180 the following year, or him just staying in the bullpen and closing.

[mdccclxix]

Chapman's slider is so ridiculously nasty I can't believe it. If he can locate that for strikes, look the heck out.

[RadfordVA]

I don't understand people that think Chapman can't start. He look like the second coming of Randy Johnson to me. Secondary pitches? He has a fantastic slider, he just doesn't throw it because he doesn't have to as a closer. Johnson made a HOF career out of a 98 MPH fastball and a slider. Plus it's not like he's never started...He started 65 games in Cuba.

I would almost hope he can not be a starter at this point. No one knows more about what he actually has in his arsenal and makeup than the people in the Reds organization. If they though it was possible that he could be a front line starter and hold up physically through a season and they let him spend his last 3 seasons in the bullpen, then I do not think that bodes well for their decision making ability.

Even if Baker was standing in the way, to have something that valuable and not use it would still be on Jocketty and Ownership for not forcing it through. So for me the last 2 seasons I have just read between the lines and thought that he would never be able to make it as a starter based on their actions. They can not come out and exactly say that he does not have what it takes so I judged them more on their actions than words.

If they end up making him a starter now I would rethink my feelings on the handling of this team the last couple seasons by Jocketty and company.

[Kc61]

I'd be more ok with that than what's going on now, but does any manager use his closer that way other than in extreme circumstances?

Yes, some closers work multiple innings. Some pitch out of turn, although usually in the playoffs or pennant race games.

But if Chapman is so far beyond the normal closer, he can close games but also work other times in leveraged situations to get him more innings.

It would require a secondary closer, for when Aroldis is used otherwise, which also has happened before.

[LoganBuck]

I keep seeing people say that the ship has sailed on making Chapman a starter, but if anyone has given a good reason why, I've missed it, which is possible.

Ok here is the reasoning.

-He has not built up any measure of stamina in terms of innings pitched
-In both 2011 and 2012 he had minor shoulder issues
-He has not developed a third pitch
-It has been stated on more than one occasion that Chapman prefers to close.

I would prefer to see him as a starter. I think everyone would. But that transition is not without drawbacks. The Reds are in a win now mode. I worry that it would look a lot like Neftali Feliz's 2012. Everyone remember him?

[Krusty]

Interesting trade proposal but a couple of questions:

1. Who replaces Phillips at second base?

2. Who becomes the closer? Marshall failed in a short trial. Broxton is coming off arm surgery. J.J. Hoover?

You don't do this deal unless you have the replacements.

[5TimeWSChamps]

Take out Porcello, Put in Smyly and Rondon

Make the deal

[Old NDN]

The guy who knows Chapman's abilty better than anyone is now the manager. If Price says he's going to be a starter, that's good enough for me. Chapman is likely the most dominant, overpowering pitcher in the game. Why in the world would you want to trade him?