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Thread: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

  1. #16
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    We may never know if it was rape or not. Not all rapes are violent with physical evidence showing it was forced. But if the person said no, it's still rape. And without evidence or witnesses, sadly there's nothing that can be done. I know there are those out there who target famous people for scams, but I tend to be more inclined to believe that in most cases, the potential payoff would not be worth what they have to be put through. Based on what we know at this point, which is an incomplete picture, I find it hard to believe that this was completely fabricated in the hope of personal enrichment. But the most likely scenario is that we will never know with certainty.
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  3. #17
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    It's pretty amazing to me that police departments in college towns still insist on handling cases like this themselves. Calling in outside help or a special prosecutor to conduct the investigation seems like a no brainer.

    Also, somewhat unrelated, but I'm also tremendously bothered that we don't shield the alleged perpatrator's name the same way we do a victim's name. As of right now there are no charges against this young man, but this case is already being tried in the court of public opinion. That's simply not fair to him.
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    jojo (11-21-2013)

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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Intoxication does not warrant a yes and make the attacker exempt from sexual assault. I feel very sorry for the girl, she is the true victim, not some football team or a star quarterback.
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by 19braves77 View Post
    Intoxication does not warrant a yes and make the attacker exempt from sexual assault. I feel very sorry for the girl, she is the true victim, not some football team or a star quarterback.
    What does intoxication have to do with anything? Also, while discussing what is warranted, your post assumes way more than is actually warranted.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Blow your gasket but also save the jaded moralizing for another forum before you spew it in a response. This is not suggesting that a rape should be ignored.
    Wow, you get defensive quick. Good thing I just asked what you meant instead of, you know, giving an opinion. I wasn't sure if you were referring to the FSU football program, the perception of local law enforcement, or any number of other things you could have been referring to. Thanks for clearing it up.
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    Thanks for clearing it up.
    Youre welcome.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  9. #22
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Right now we have an anonymous accuser claiming she was raped, a garment belonging to the victim that has Winston's DNA on it (we know this because the police collected a sexual assault kit the day that the incident was reported and Winston volunteered a sample of his DAN last week), a denial by Winston that there was a rape, and affidavids from two people who were with the alledged victim and Winston who don't corroborate the victim's story in sworn statements.

    The police have the accuser's testimony and evidence collected during a rape kit. The accuser also quit cooperating in February essentially making it much harder to effectively investigate especially since they had to contact Winston through a lawyer. That DNA matched really isn't even a major issue. If Winston didn't deny sexual contact and affidavids suggest a consensual situation, it most likely comes down to whether there were any injuries observed suggested of rape. Apparently the accuser wasn't legally intoxicated given the letter from the family so there isn't even that potential issue of consent.

    If the above is accurate, then this is a "he said/she said" situation where the accuser quit cooperating and the accused retained a lawyer almost instantly. Even if Winston would be indicted, this is probably the worst case scenario in terms of trying to get a conviction.

    The Tallahassee police look bad but they really had zero to propel this case from February on while the accused apparently had witnesses casting doubt on the facts. I think any marks/injuries is going to be a key issue. I also don't buy for a second that Winston's room mate witnessed a rape and police refused to interview him. I could be wrong, but that assertion really needs to be proven.
    The real problem is why the victim stopped cooperating. Was it because the case was weak or because the detective on the case said something that shouldn't have been said? .
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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    Joseph (11-21-2013)

  11. #23
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Disclaimers... (1) FSU grad here who has heard plenty of TPD horror stories, although being overly helpful to athletes is not among their normal traits. (2) As a man who is also the daddy of a daughter, my position is simple: If he raped someone, I want him off the team and in jail. If he didn't rape anyone, I don't want his name dragged through the mud. Too late on the latter one way or the other, unfortunately. (3) Some of my fellow FSU fans need to be leashed and muzzled. (4) Apparently, so does practically everyone involved in this case except the two principals.

    What I've been reading is that Winston (through his attorney) has taken the position all along that it was a consensual sexual hookup, and the DNA sample was given last week knowing there would be a match. It's not new information except to outsiders who were hoping it was all a big misunderstanding. (To answer another question, yes, a rape kit was performed at the time.) And it's also being said that Winston and the alleged victim were not strangers, according to the affidavits and social-media bread crumbs. So it raised serious eyebrows when the initial report described an unknown assailant who didn't resemble Winston and then she didn't ID him until a month later, if indeed she did know Winston all along. At a certain point, when it was clear there wasn't a viable case with which to move forward, the alleged victim let it drop and TPD did likewise.

    Anyway, take that for what it's worth, which could be everything, nothing or in between.

    It does appear TPD screwed up by not forwarding the case to the state attorney's office as a matter of protocol, regardless of what they thought of the merits.

    There's also plenty of speculation about who tipped off the media and TMZ about the inactive case, right about the time FSU went to #2 and Winston became the Heisman front-runner. It's not of much interest to me, though, because ultimately it's small potatoes compared to what the alleged victim and Winston are dealing with.

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    FWIW I think FSU suspends Winston indefinitely. They have Idaho next and in 10 days have Florida. It gives the states attorney's office time to decide if they are going to press charges. It makes FSU look like they are doing the right thing by suspending Winston during the investigation, at least for one game against cupcake city.
    Remember that this is all a re-hash of stuff that happened from December to February. It's new to us, but it's not new to them, so if they hadn't suspended him before, they're probably not going to do it now. (Edit) Unless he's charged. By rule, athletes at FSU who are charged with felonies cannot compete until the case is resolved.
    Last edited by IslandRed; 11-21-2013 at 11:27 AM.
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    The real problem is why the victim stopped cooperating. Was it because the case was weak or because the detective on the case said something that shouldn't have been said? .
    I too think this is a very important. Did the accuser make a rational choice that it wasn't worth pursuing or did a law enforcement officer manipulate her?

    Its possible that the detective wasnt excited about the strength of the evidence and the accuser is dissapointed by a perception that the investigation lacks vigor and was offended that her testimony wasn't enough.

    I think there are two issues:
    1) was there actually a witness that was completely ignored.
    2) did a physical examination corroborate the accuser's story or not (if not, it's still not evidence that she wasn't raped, it's just a lack of proof that she was)
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    Disclaimers... (1) FSU grad here who has heard plenty of TPD horror stories, although being overly helpful to athletes is not among their normal traits. (2) As a man who is also the daddy of a daughter, my position is simple: If he raped someone, I want him off the team and in jail. If he didn't rape anyone, I don't want his name dragged through the mud. Too late on the latter one way or the other, unfortunately. (3) Some of my fellow FSU fans need to be leashed and muzzled. (4) Apparently, so does practically everyone involved in this case except the two principals.

    What I've been reading is that Winston (through his attorney) has taken the position all along that it was a consensual sexual hookup, and the DNA sample was given last week knowing there would be a match. It's not new information except to outsiders who were hoping it was all a big misunderstanding. (To answer another question, yes, a rape kit was performed at the time.) And it's also being said that Winston and the alleged victim were not strangers, according to the affidavits and social-media bread crumbs. So it raised serious eyebrows when the initial report described an unknown assailant who didn't resemble Winston and then she didn't ID him until a month later, if indeed she did know Winston all along. At a certain point, when it was clear there wasn't a viable case with which to move forward, the alleged victim let it drop and TPD did likewise.

    Anyway, take that for what it's worth, which could be everything, nothing or in between.

    It does appear TPD screwed up by not forwarding the case to the state attorney's office as a matter of protocol, regardless of what they thought of the merits.

    There's also plenty of speculation about who tipped off the media and TMZ about the inactive case, right about the time FSU went to #2 and Winston became the Heisman front-runner. It's not of much interest to me, though, because ultimately it's small potatoes compared to what the alleged victim and Winston are dealing with.



    Remember that this is all a re-hash of stuff that happened from December to February. It's new to us, but it's not new to them, so if they hadn't suspended him before, they're probably not going to do it now. (Edit) Unless he's charged. By rule, athletes at FSU who are charged with felonies cannot compete until the case is resolved.
    This is pretty much exactly everything I've heard from friends at FSU.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  14. #26
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    It's pretty amazing to me that police departments in college towns still insist on handling cases like this themselves. Calling in outside help or a special prosecutor to conduct the investigation seems like a no brainer.

    Also, somewhat unrelated, but I'm also tremendously bothered that we don't shield the alleged perpatrator's name the same way we do a victim's name. As of right now there are no charges against this young man, but this case is already being tried in the court of public opinion. That's simply not fair to him.
    Unfortunately (or fortunately), police reports are public record for everyone. I've had people lose their jobs over getting charged with a misdemeanor, only to get the case dismissed later. I've also had cases where my clients have been able to build a defense because they had access to police reports that show the alleged victim has a history of bad behavior even though the police chose not to file charges.

    On the one hand, it stinks that this guy is dealing with this without charges being filed and he does turn out to be innocent, but then again, would you feel the same way if he were a serial rapist and nobody knew? Imagine if he was implicated in 4 or 5 rapes, but never got charged because the police either didn't do a proper investigation or were protecting him because of his star status. If his name were kept from the public, no one might ever find out unless the victims got together and talked or someone in the police department blew the whistle. When it comes to criminal matters, you have to balance the privacy of the individual with the public's right to know.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    What does intoxication have to do with anything?
    If this gal was intoxicated it'll be harder for the prosecutor to get a conviction. As will the fact that she initially opted to not press charges

  16. #28
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by 19braves77 View Post
    Intoxication does not warrant a yes and make the attacker exempt from sexual assault. I feel very sorry for the girl, she is the true victim, not some football team or a star quarterback.
    How do you know you should feel sorry for her? how do you know she's the true victim? She could be making it up, perhaps Winton told her he wasn't interested in a relationship after they hooked up and she was trying to extract revenge, which is maybe why she didn't push things forward. Maybe she's a victim, but at this point, maybe she's not. I'll w/hold judgement that just maybe Winston is the victim in this mess at this point. Either way, I just hope the truth comes out and real justice is served, there is definetnly potential that we never know the true story behind this.

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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    If this gal was intoxicated it'll be harder for the prosecutor to get a conviction. As will the fact that she initially opted to not press charges
    Her family has argued that she was not.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    If this gal was intoxicated it'll be harder for the prosecutor to get a conviction. As will the fact that she initially opted to not press charges
    Actually, intoxicated victim often works against the defendant because it can be argued that an intoxicated victim can't give consent.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.


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