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Thread: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

  1. #31
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Unfortunately (or fortunately), police reports are public record for everyone. I've had people lose their jobs over getting charged with a misdemeanor, only to get the case dismissed later. I've also had cases where my clients have been able to build a defense because they had access to police reports that show the alleged victim has a history of bad behavior even though the police chose not to file charges.

    On the one hand, it stinks that this guy is dealing with this without charges being filed and he does turn out to be innocent, but then again, would you feel the same way if he were a serial rapist and nobody knew? Imagine if he was implicated in 4 or 5 rapes, but never got charged because the police either didn't do a proper investigation or were protecting him because of his star status. If his name were kept from the public, no one might ever find out unless the victims got together and talked or someone in the police department blew the whistle. When it comes to criminal matters, you have to balance the privacy of the individual with the public's right to know.
    I agree with what you're saying in principle, but rape is such an incredibly damning allegation that I think there should be some additional protections. Maybe at least something that prevents his name from being released until the investigation is concluded to prevent this constant stream of "updates" whenever a new fact emerges. I think that's at least some protection for the accused while maintaining transparency.
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  3. #32
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    If this gal was intoxicated it'll be harder for the prosecutor to get a conviction. As will the fact that she initially opted to not press charges
    Actually, intoxicated victim often works against the defendant because it can be argued that an intoxicated victim can't give consent.
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  4. #33
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Her family has argued that she was not.
    Then that will bode well for her case but don't act like that fact doesn't matter.

  5. #34
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    Disclaimers... (1) FSU grad here who has heard plenty of TPD horror stories, although being overly helpful to athletes is not among their normal traits. (2) As a man who is also the daddy of a daughter, my position is simple: If he raped someone, I want him off the team and in jail. If he didn't rape anyone, I don't want his name dragged through the mud. Too late on the latter one way or the other, unfortunately. (3) Some of my fellow FSU fans need to be leashed and muzzled. (4) Apparently, so does practically everyone involved in this case except the two principals.

    What I've been reading is that Winston (through his attorney) has taken the position all along that it was a consensual sexual hookup, and the DNA sample was given last week knowing there would be a match. It's not new information except to outsiders who were hoping it was all a big misunderstanding. (To answer another question, yes, a rape kit was performed at the time.) And it's also being said that Winston and the alleged victim were not strangers, according to the affidavits and social-media bread crumbs. So it raised serious eyebrows when the initial report described an unknown assailant who didn't resemble Winston and then she didn't ID him until a month later, if indeed she did know Winston all along. At a certain point, when it was clear there wasn't a viable case with which to move forward, the alleged victim let it drop and TPD did likewise.

    Anyway, take that for what it's worth, which could be everything, nothing or in between.

    It does appear TPD screwed up by not forwarding the case to the state attorney's office as a matter of protocol, regardless of what they thought of the merits.

    There's also plenty of speculation about who tipped off the media and TMZ about the inactive case, right about the time FSU went to #2 and Winston became the Heisman front-runner. It's not of much interest to me, though, because ultimately it's small potatoes compared to what the alleged victim and Winston are dealing with.



    Remember that this is all a re-hash of stuff that happened from December to February. It's new to us, but it's not new to them, so if they hadn't suspended him before, they're probably not going to do it now. (Edit) Unless he's charged. By rule, athletes at FSU who are charged with felonies cannot compete until the case is resolved.
    I appreciate a response from someone who has more a feeling of the local flavor.

    This stuff happened from December to February, but that also coincides with FSU Baseball season starting up, in which Winston is a pretty good player, no? I did not know who Winston was until this football season started but from experience as an OSU fan, if you have a hyped QB, even as a HS senior, their name is pretty much known by all OSU fans. Could Winston's status have gotten him out of this?

    The dangerous aspect of this case is if the police coerced this woman into dropping the story. I am not an attorney, but if the defendant chooses not to press charges, doesn't the accusation go away? We see it all the time with wives who are beaten by their man. They sustain pretty substantial injuries, head to the hospital, make an accusation, but then fail to press charges and the case is dropped.

    The way I look at it today is that Winston submitted to a DNA test because both he and his lawyer knew what was going to be found. They knew his DNA was on the accuser's underwear. They knew that submitting a DNA test would be much easier than having one subpoenaed (if that is the proper term.) If he was forced by the court to give a DNA test that would have been greeted with much great fan fare.

    If, and this is a big if, the accuser in this case was "coerced" by the police to drop the case because of Winston's status in FSU's athletic programs then you have a massive case on your hands. If this is a case of he said, she said, with limited evidence then I feel bad for Winston. The problem is when the proper channels aren't used you often make mountains out of molehills.

  6. #35
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Actually, intoxicated victim often works against the defendant because it can be argued that an intoxicated victim can't give consent.
    In certain cases, this is correct. My point stays the same: intoxication does have a bearing on these cases

  7. #36
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Then that will bode well for her case but don't act like that fact doesn't matter.
    You should read for content because it has been indicated several times that she apparently wasn't intoxicated hence the point that was made.

    It also doesn't bode one way or the other for her case but is potentially helpful for his.
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  8. #37
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    In certain cases, this is correct. My point stays the same: intoxication does have a bearing on these cases
    And again, since apparently she wasn't , it doesn't in this case.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  9. #38
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    I appreciate a response from someone who has more a feeling of the local flavor.

    This stuff happened from December to February, but that also coincides with FSU Baseball season starting up, in which Winston is a pretty good player, no? I did not know who Winston was until this football season started but from experience as an OSU fan, if you have a hyped QB, even as a HS senior, their name is pretty much known by all OSU fans. Could Winston's status have gotten him out of this?

    The dangerous aspect of this case is if the police coerced this woman into dropping the story. I am not an attorney, but if the defendant chooses not to press charges, doesn't the accusation go away? We see it all the time with wives who are beaten by their man. They sustain pretty substantial injuries, head to the hospital, make an accusation, but then fail to press charges and the case is dropped.

    The way I look at it today is that Winston submitted to a DNA test because both he and his lawyer knew what was going to be found. They knew his DNA was on the accuser's underwear. They knew that submitting a DNA test would be much easier than having one subpoenaed (if that is the proper term.) If he was forced by the court to give a DNA test that would have been greeted with much great fan fare.

    If, and this is a big if, the accuser in this case was "coerced" by the police to drop the case because of Winston's status in FSU's athletic programs then you have a massive case on your hands. If this is a case of he said, she said, with limited evidence then I feel bad for Winston. The problem is when the proper channels aren't used you often make mountains out of molehills.
    Winston was most definitely a known person on campus given his prospect status.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  10. #39
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    If, and this is a big if, the accuser in this case was "coerced" by the police to drop the case because of Winston's status in FSU's athletic programs then you have a massive case on your hands. If this is a case of he said, she said, with limited evidence then I feel bad for Winston. The problem is when the proper channels aren't used you often make mountains out of molehills.
    While the detective shouldn't have said what he said to the accuser's attorney (assuming it really was said), the attorney is a former prosecutor. They don't scare easily. I suspect this was during the "there's nothing much here, are you sure you want to do this?" phase. The "advice" was misplaced but it's also true to an extent, and would be in any sports-mad town. By definition this was going to be a high-profile case and an accuser is going to face backlash and scrutiny, especially if the case was not open and shut. I wish the world didn't work like that, but alas.

    As for Winston being shielded because of his status, I'm not going to say that couldn't have happened, but TPD has rung up plenty of guys over the years of higher profile. At the time in question, Winston had yet to take the field in any sport. It's worth noting that FSU's projected four-man WR rotation was reduced to three over the summer because Greg Dent, a senior, was arrested by TPD, charged with sexual battery and kicked off the team. No muss, no fuss. The fact that FSU and Jimbo Fisher did not suspend Winston, knowing of this incident -- before spring practice, before he won the starting job, before he became Famous Jameis -- tells me they believe 100% in his innocence. It doesn't guarantee they're right but it tells me they believe it.
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    The fact that FSU and Jimbo Fisher did not suspend Winston, knowing of this incident -- before spring practice, before he won the starting job, before he became Famous Jameis -- tells me they believe 100% in his innocence. It doesn't guarantee they're right but it tells me they believe it.
    Of course they'd think he's innocent. He wasn't even investigated, or even interviewed. This thing has cover-up written all over it. Who knows what actually happened, but from an outsiders vantage point, it looks like Winston was given preferential treatment because of his local celebrity at the time. I'm not surprised FSU people see it differently. Football is king in Tallahassee.
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  12. #41
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Actually, intoxicated victim often works against the defendant because it can be argued that an intoxicated victim can't give consent.
    I don't mean to change the topic entirely here, but I've always taken some issue with this. If having a couple drinks then making a bad decision can constitute rape, it should count both ways. Sure, guys are typically the pursuer, but really, we want equality in this world but if a guy had a few beers then hooked up with a woman he later regretted he'd be laughed out of the police department if he tried to file a rape claim.

    I completely agree if someone has had enough that they are barely coherent or passed out, then no they can't consent, but if someone chooses to impair their judgment I don't feel good about putting folks away because they change their mind later about the actions they make.

    Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I just needed to vent a bit.

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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    Of course they'd think he's innocent. He wasn't even investigated, or even interviewed. This thing has cover-up written all over it. Who knows what actually happened, but from an outsiders vantage point, it looks like Winston was given preferential treatment because of his local celebrity at the time. I'm not surprised FSU people see it differently. Football is king in Tallahassee.
    The TPD hasn't really pulled a ton of punches in the past. Not sure why all of the sudden a redshirt freshman would be treated like he was AJ McCarron or Trent Richardson in need of a suit.

    This from a FSU insider (take it for what it's worth):

    "Rumor from Tally is that JWs story has ALWAYS been it that it was consensual.
    That one of the affidavits is from the accuser’s roommate and the other is from another football player, both of whom were present (happened at HER apartment, not a bar, not a party, not JWs place). That both confirm that they had an ongoing relationship.

    That there are photos of the two of them together taken before AND after the initial allegation. That roommate claims she was pissed at JW for some reason that night and decided to claim rape. (perhaps because he told her his real GF was coming in town that day and to lay low). That she changed her mind after the call but before the cops got there but didn’t want to tell them she made it up. (thus the “unidentified” rapist…intentionally fabricated description) That when she later was pressed, she identified JW and was questioned about her inconsistent statements and evidence of a consensual relationship and realized she better drop it. That when the accuser met with Meggs on Tuesday, she reaffirmed that she did not want to press charges. That every bit of evidence collected points to consensual sex and there is no way charges will be brought. That TPD and SAO are only trying to figure out how to clear JW without exposing/humiliating the accuser.
    Also, that JW informed Jimbo about it in DECEMBER of last year after he heard of the call to the cops and told him EVERYTHING (thus JF’s continued faith in JW).
    Assuming any of this is correct (not that there is any proof of any of it) JW, JF and Jansens confidence is not surprising.
    Based on what we know now, if there are no charges by Friday, and if JW is suited up on Saturday, you can bet that there will not be any. And whoever is responsible for leaking this is certainly going to get “raked over the coals”
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    The TPD hasn't really pulled a ton of punches in the past. Not sure why all of the sudden a redshirt freshman would be treated like he was AJ McCarron or Trent Richardson in need of a suit.
    Please. He was the #1 ranked recruit in the entire country. Let's not pretend this is some nobody in Tallahassee. As for what punches the TPD has or hasn't pulled in the past with FSU athletes, none of us have a clue about that. All I know is how they handled this particular case. No investigation, no interview, nothing. Even though they were given the accused name? There's no way that's standard procedure for a rape accusation.
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  16. #44
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    Please. He was the #1 ranked recruit in the entire country. Let's not pretend this is some nobody in Tallahassee. As for what punches the TPD has or hasn't pulled in the past with FSU athletes, none of us have a clue about that.
    I did, but apparently only non-fans are credible when it comes to what goes on in a program or a college town. I'll be sure to remind you of that next time something comes up on UK. Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood here.

    All I know is how they handled this particular case. No investigation, no interview, nothing. Even though they were given the accused name? There's no way that's standard procedure for a rape accusation.
    FSU and TPD had his version of events and who the witnesses were back then, and it hasn't changed so far as anyone knows. He wasn't "interviewed" (and still hasn't been) -- directly. That's what attorneys are for. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what other protocols were broken, exactly.

    Nonetheless, the pessimistic side of me expects Winston to be charged if for no other reason than to show they're not covering it up.
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    Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    I did, but apparently only non-fans are credible when it comes to what goes on in a program or a college town. I'll be sure to remind you of that next time something comes up on UK. Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood here.



    FSU and TPD had his version of events and who the witnesses were back then, and it hasn't changed so far as anyone knows. He wasn't "interviewed" (and still hasn't been) -- directly. That's what attorneys are for. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what other protocols were broken, exactly.

    Nonetheless, the pessimistic side of me expects Winston to be charged if for no other reason than to show they're not covering it up.
    Like I said before, I have no idea what happened. My comments are directed at the TPD. It just seems like it was handled very unprofessionally from the start. As for UK, no one is harder on former and/or current UK athletes who run afoul of the law than I am (see my comments about Michael Porter and Deandre Liggins in the past year). Winston is an incredible football player. He's had my Heisman vote since the first couple weeks of the season. If he's innocent, hopefully this publicity doesn't hurt his chances. If he's guilty, I hope he's treated as any other citizen in the same situation would be treated.
    "I talked to an advance scout that told me if Joey Votto and Albert Pujols were on the same team he'd advise his team to do the unthinkable...pitch around Votto to get to Pujols." - Buster Olney, ESPN


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