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Thread: Three-way trade with the Yankees and Indians?

  1. #1
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    Three-way trade with the Yankees and Indians?

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/1...masterson.html

    We could take Gardner and send BP back to Cleveland haha

    But more seriously...

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/1...wednesday.html

    We need to get rid of BP... Send him to New York for Gardner and put Choo in left field...I know it's a lot of lefties, but it seemed to work for Philadelphia a few years ago.

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    Re: Three-way trade with the Yankees and Indians?

    BP needs to stay where he's at. There's no better replacement available offensively or defensively. Taking on a huge contract like Choo's would be a bad idea.

    What happens to CF? Bruce? Maybe

    Where does Ludwick go?

    We'll never sign Choo and we just need to accept that. No matter how you look at it, if you trade any of our big names the team does not get better.

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    Degenerate39 (12-14-2013), dubc47834 (12-12-2013), Dwarftree (12-14-2013), markymark69 (12-13-2013), Reds&BuckeyeGuy (12-12-2013)

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    Re: Three-way trade with the Yankees and Indians?

    Just playing devils advocate here, but why are many in the trade BP camp so quick to sign Choo to a mega deal? I agree it was a mistake to sign a 30+ year old BP to a big deal, but why go right back and make an even bigger deal to a 30+ year old Choo?

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    Re: Three-way trade with the Yankees and Indians?

    Quote Originally Posted by No pants Mcgee View Post
    Just playing devils advocate here, but why are many in the trade BP camp so quick to sign Choo to a mega deal? I agree it was a mistake to sign a 30+ year old BP to a big deal, but why go right back and make an even bigger deal to a 30+ year old Choo?
    Right, and then in 2 years people will wanting to trade Choo because he is over priced. The cycle would never end!

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    markymark69 (12-13-2013)

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    Re: Three-way trade with the Yankees and Indians?

    Because Choo doesn't have an attitude like BP...I can handle overpaying a player as long as he just shuts up and does his job. Choo is one of the hardest working players in baseball. He is a team first player..BP wants the spotlight on him.

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    Re: Three-way trade with the Yankees and Indians?

    But yes...in two years, we might be wanting to trade Choo..That's the way baseball works. You sign these guys for probably more than they're worth and then trade them to a big market team in a few years when you can't afford them anymore.

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    Re: Three-way trade with the Yankees and Indians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Delancey View Post
    Because Choo doesn't have an attitude like BP...I can handle overpaying a player as long as he just shuts up and does his job. Choo is one of the hardest working players in baseball. He is a team first player..BP wants the spotlight on him.
    Fair enough. I don't agree with everything, but that doesn't mean you're wrong.

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    Re: Three-way trade with the Yankees and Indians?

    Quote Originally Posted by No pants Mcgee View Post
    Just playing devils advocate here, but why are many in the trade BP camp so quick to sign Choo to a mega deal? I agree it was a mistake to sign a 30+ year old BP to a big deal, but why go right back and make an even bigger deal to a 30+ year old Choo?
    Bingo.

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    Re: Three-way trade with the Yankees and Indians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Delancey View Post
    Because Choo doesn't have an attitude like BP...I can handle overpaying a player as long as he just shuts up and does his job. Choo is one of the hardest working players in baseball. He is a team first player..BP wants the spotlight on him.
    So, you basically want to trade him because you don't like him?
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    Re: Three-way trade with the Yankees and Indians?

    No... I feel he is a cancer to our team that worries more about his image than playing baseball..

    He tries to look good rather than just getting the job done. The way he watches the ball after he hits and taps his helmet on a hit instead of busting it down the line drives me crazy. Triples have turned into doubles and doubles have turned into singles bc of his lack of hustle. Also, and don't get me wrong, the man is an unreal defensive player, but the way he catches pop ups behind his head...the way he doesn't step and throw to first base...the way he turns double-plays (this has cost us)..He tries to go for the flash instead of just making the play. It drives me crazy and it will catch up to him.

    I love what he does for the fans. He's friendly and does a lot for them, but his play drives me crazy.

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    Re: Three-way trade with the Yankees and Indians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Delancey View Post
    I love what he does for the fans. He's friendly and does a lot for them, but his play drives me crazy.
    You probably didn't like the ESPN web gem highlight DP he pulled off where he sprawled across 2B and threw on his knees to 1B.

    You know, the one where Cozart was in perfect position to make a completely unremarkable DP.
    Everything is perfect, but there is a lot of room for improvement. --- Shunryu Suzuki-roshi

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    Re: Three-way trade with the Yankees and Indians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Delancey View Post
    Because Choo doesn't have an attitude like BP...I can handle overpaying a player as long as he just shuts up and does his job. Choo is one of the hardest working players in baseball. He is a team first player..BP wants the spotlight on him.
    Very few people had a problem with Phillips' "attitude" when he was raking and playing GG defense. It was known as "swagger". Once his performance started tailing off, it became an "attitude".

    I'm not saying you are wrong for feeling the way you do because when you have a flamboyant player like Phillips, the point where the "juice is no longer worth the squeeze" happens much sooner than a "lunch pail" kind of player.

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    Re: Three-way trade with the Yankees and Indians?

    Ron, I agree that his lack of hustle drives me nuts! Despite that, I love BP and hope he stays with the Reds!

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    Re: Three-way trade with the Yankees and Indians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Delancey View Post

    We need to get rid of BP... Send him to New York for Gardner and put Choo in left field...I know it's a lot of lefties, but it seemed to work for Philadelphia a few years ago.
    Sorry, I can only get on like every 2-3 weeks, so I usually make 1 monster post trying to cover a variety of topics, instead of posting 6-7 smaller posts in different threads. As usual, TLDR.


    The more I think about it from the NYY perspective, no way they want to trade Gardner for BP. The problem for the Reds trading BP as everyone has mentioned, is that it does leave a hole @ 2B for the Reds and they don't have an internal solution for 2b. And no, Skip is not a solution @ 2B.

    Anything the Reds do with BP would have to involve a 2nd trade somewhere along the line to fill the hole @ 2b.


    First things first--- young 2B the Reds would be interested in. I choose young 2B, because they are cheaper and part of the reason to move BP is for the salary savings to help re sign guys like Latos long term.

    Jose Altuve, 2B Astros.
    Nick Franklin, 2B Seattle
    Dustin Ackley, 2B/OF Seattle
    Chris Owings, SS, Arizona
    Donovan Solano, 2B, Miami
    Jason Kipnis, 2B, Cleveland
    DJ LeMahieu, 2B, Colorado
    Scooter Gennett, 2B, Milwaukee


    On that list- you can eliminate some guys right away. Gennett is the replacement for Weeks whose contract is up next year. Gennett may also be starting 2B for Milwaukee anyway. Same with LeMahieu. Kipnis was good last year and the Indians won't trade him. Arizona has high hopes for Owings (who can move to 2B) and won't trade him unless the Reds trade a pitcher in return. Solano is ok and I still think he should beat out Furcal for the starting 2B job. Altuve is probably off the table for 2 years until DEshields Jr is ready to challenge him for his spot. The Astros have traded for Fowler, have signed Feldman-- it tells me that they are trying to get incrementally better next year and wont want to move one of their best players.

    We are down to Ackley and Franklin. The Mariners need a RF for sure, and an upgrade in CF if at all possible. Ackley will be tough to snag since the M's don't have a replacement @ CF if he leaves. Maybe Saunders in CF as a replacement?? idk.

    Nick Franklin, 2b, M's. This is the obvious candidate to everyone because Cano has taken his starting job. He's young, just 22 years old. He's cheap and he won't be a free agent until after the 2019 season. Long term, he's a great fit for the Reds. The Reds need talented, cheap young players to fill out the roster because of a lack of $$ to spend because of big contracts to Votto, Bruce and hopefully Latos and Cueto.

    Not to mention, trading for Franklin to replace BP saves the Reds $10.5mm this season and would allow the Reds to maybe sign Arroyo for pitching depth if they wish. (BP's salary is $11mm in 2014, Franklin's would be about 500K, hence $10.5mm savings)

    Now that Nick Franklin is the obvious target, what would it take to trade for him? The M's want to compete-- they want a ready made MLB player to be the centerpiece of a deal, not a bunch of prospects if @ all possible.

    The M's are solid @ 2b, SS, 3B and have a bunch of options for 1b, LF and DH. Zunino is a top prospect @ Catcher. The M's need help in the OF, but they won't want Ludwick and the Reds aren't trading Bruce. So no fit there.

    The M's starting pitching is pretty solid. Felix, Iwakumura and one of the best pitching prospects in Walker anchor their staff. Paxton is a nice young arm, middle of rotation guy and then Ramirez. We all know the M's will be posting for Tanaka and have the cash to sign him to a big deal. The M's starting pitching, with or without Tanaka is pretty solid.

    The M's bullpen. Now this is the area they need to address. I'm a little surprised they didn't go out and sign a few top middle relievers right away early in FA-- you can get them for $5mm a year. (Joe Smith for example)

    The M's 2 closers last year had ERA's over 4.00. They had another reliever with 59 IP with an ERA over 5. They only had 1 sub 3.50 ERA reliever last year. The Reds by contrast had 5 guys with sub 3.50 ERA's out of the pen last year. Hoover, Chapman, LeCure, Hoover and Parra. (Marshall doesn't count since he only pitched 10 innings)

    The M's bullpen is garbage and it's one area that needs to be strengthened.

    I can't believe I'm typing this, but if the Reds wanted to move BP and get a cheaper, younger replacement- it would probably cost them Aroldis Chapman to get Nick Franklin in a deal. You have to give up something to get something, and Chapman is really the only fit for Seattle based upon Seattle's needs. Both teams win. The M's get a top closer for their bullpen. The Reds get their replacement @ 2B for BP. Chapman still has 3 years of control correct? So he would be pretty valuable for the M's.

    The Reds then could turn around and trade BP to the Yankees for Betances (middle reliever) and another prospect or Betances and Soriano. (Soriano is only due $5mm this year, the Cubs are paying $13mm of his salary this year. Option for next year the Reds would decline)

    Soriano would be a slight upgrade over Ludwick-- definitely better defensively. Soriano still has some pop as evidenced by his 34 HR's last year.

    Betances would start the season in middle relief, and the Reds would promote Hoover I guess to closer. (Can't count on Broxton being healthy in time to close)


    Short term.

    2014. Reds save $11mm from BP. Chapman's projected ARB # is $4.6mm.
    Franklin's salary will be about $500K, same with Betances. Net savings for the Reds next year, $14.6mm. (9.6mm if they ask for Soriano)

    The Reds save a fair amount of money that can be utilized in a variety of ways. They can re sign Arroyo for a year, they can extend Bailey and offer him a signing bonus. They can and should extend Latos this offseason.

    If they re sign Arroyo, they can move Cingrani to the pen, strengthening the bullpen to compensate for the loss of Chapman.

    Short term, it's probably a slight net loss. BP should be a little better than Franklin next year, but long term Franklin should be better than BP as BP ages. Hoover @ closer should be a little worse than Chapman, but it will be close and not that big of a deal.

    Betances will be worse in middle relief than Hoover was filling his spot.

    The one pro next year is the additional $10-$14mm the Reds have to spend, not to mention the $18 million they will have saved in 2015, and $20mm they will have saved in 2016 from trading BP and Chapman. (Assuming Chapman would get @ least $6mm in arb 2015 and $7mm in arb in 2016)

    That savings right there is enough to resign Cueto/Latos long term.


    So many people look @ the Reds are only look 1 year in advance. I've been a fan since 1983, and I've seen the highs and lows. I wish the Reds would look @ teams like Oakland and Tampa and realize you can win with a limited payroll, but you have to be smart. Sometimes you have to trade good players who are in the final years of their deals if you can't resign them long term, or if they are asking for too much money.

    I'd be willing to move BP and Chapman even if it meant taking a real small step backwards next year if it meant the Reds are stronger moving forward. I've been a fan since 1983, and have seen some real bad teams along the way. I want long term continued success, not short term success, followed by a long period of sucking, then good again.

    Sometimes hard decisions have to be made, and the fact that the core of the Reds success, their pitching, is not signed past 2015 is worrisome. Bailey is a FA after next year. Latos, Cueto and Leake and FA's after 2015. The Reds need cash to re sign some of these guys, and those who can't be resigned because of payroll limitations will eventually need to be traded for a bounty of prospects.

    Pitching is gold, you can never have enough of it. And the Reds pitchers are young relatively for Free Agency. 28,28,28 and 29 (Cueto) will be their ages for free agency. The Reds have some valuable assets, and it's important to maximize their value if they can't be re signed. The Reds have to think long term just as much as short term in their dealings.

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    Re: Three-way trade with the Yankees and Indians?

    BP is a cancer but if we lose him, we had better replace his .260 bat with something better. H-Rod is not going to cut it in the majors yet. I think Dat Dude will respond better to a new manager than most think, though. He has been very quiet this off season. Wish he had been last off season.
    Last edited by bullseye; 12-14-2013 at 04:41 PM.


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