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Thread: Just too many holes to fill.

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    Just too many holes to fill.

    As we continue debating the Brandon Phillips "to trade or not to trade", it dawned on me that this alone will not make that huge of a difference. The 2014 Reds, as we stand here today, are still an offensively challenged team with 4 starting pitches who have question marks. Aside from Votto, we no longer have 1 player who is a plus .270 hitter in the everyday line up. Only BP is capable of proving me wrong here, and he is being shopped around. Should he go, that would leave us with a team full of .250 or worse. Cueto's health is a concern. Bailey still has yet to show he can be dominant on a consistent basis. Leake seems to run out of gas once August approaches, and Cigrani is still a question mark. Latos is the only guy I feel is not a guess or "we will see". My point is this. We still need a 3rd baseman, shortstop, catcher, center fielder, 2nd baseman (if Phillips is gone), and left fielder. Ervin and Winker are working their way up the ladder and could be here sooner than later, but things could get ugly before they get to GABP.

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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by bullseye View Post
    As we continue debating the Brandon Phillips "to trade or not to trade", it dawned on me that this alone will not make that huge of a difference. The 2014 Reds, as we stand here today, are still an offensively challenged team with 5 starting pitches who have question marks. Aside from Votto, we no longer have 1 player who is a plus .270 hitter in the everyday line up. Only BP is capable of proving me wrong here, and he is being shopped around. Should he go, that would leave us with a team full of .250 or worse. Cueto's health is a concern. Bailey still has yet to show he can be dominant on a consistent basis. Leake seems to run out of gas once August approaches, and Cigrani is still a question mark. Latos is the only guy I feel is not a guess or "we will see". My point is this. We still need a 3rd baseman, shortstop, catcher, center fielder, 2nd baseman (if Phillips is gone), and left fielder. Ervin and Winker are working their way up the ladder and could be here sooner than later, but things could get ugly before they get to GABP.
    Let me quote a once famous songstress of our generation, "Crack is whack!"

    Put down whatever you are smoking and step away.

    Every show I watch about baseball the experts say that if the Reds either keep Cingani in the rotation or put Chapman there, the Reds are the best overall rotation in all of baseball. ALL of baseball.

    Bruce, Frazier, and Phillips can all hit .270 for the season. Heck Mesoraco could hit .270 once he starts to feel more comfortable in the big leagues. Don't forget last year was basically his rookie season, he has only played in 175 games. Ludwick is a career .262 hitter, that's not far from .270. So how many guys does that leave not hitting .270? Cozart and whomever plays CF? They might have a center fielder that can hit .270, so who cares if a slick fielding short stop hits .250? You can't have a team full of all-stars unless you want to have a $200 mil+ payroll.

    The sky is not falling, and the Reds will do just fine.

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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Let me quote a once famous songstress of our generation, "Crack is whack!"

    Put down whatever you are smoking and step away.

    Every show I watch about baseball the experts say that if the Reds either keep Cingani in the rotation or put Chapman there, the Reds are the best overall rotation in all of baseball. ALL of baseball.

    Bruce, Frazier, and Phillips can all hit .270 for the season. Heck Mesoraco could hit .270 once he starts to feel more comfortable in the big leagues. Don't forget last year was basically his rookie season, he has only played in 175 games. Ludwick is a career .262 hitter, that's not far from .270. So how many guys does that leave not hitting .270? Cozart and whomever plays CF? They might have a center fielder that can hit .270, so who cares if a slick fielding short stop hits .250? You can't have a team full of all-stars unless you want to have a $200 mil+ payroll.

    The sky is not falling, and the Reds will do just fine.
    You are going on a lot of if's. I would feel more comfortable with a lot of probably's. Eventually, Mez will hit. But will he in 2014? Frasier, Cozart, and Hamilton concern me. Their swings are too flawed. I can never see Bruce hitting above .270 consistently. The man strikes out too much. Give us a strong bat at 3rd and SS, keep Phillips, and give us a healthy starting 5 for 2014 and we will be there in the end.

  5. #4
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Let me quote a once famous songstress of our generation, "Crack is whack!"

    Put down whatever you are smoking and step away.

    Every show I watch about baseball the experts say that if the Reds either keep Cingani in the rotation or put Chapman there, the Reds are the best overall rotation in all of baseball. ALL of baseball.

    Bruce, Frazier, and Phillips can all hit .270 for the season. Heck Mesoraco could hit .270 once he starts to feel more comfortable in the big leagues. Don't forget last year was basically his rookie season, he has only played in 175 games. Ludwick is a career .262 hitter, that's not far from .270. So how many guys does that leave not hitting .270? Cozart and whomever plays CF? They might have a center fielder that can hit .270, so who cares if a slick fielding short stop hits .250? You can't have a team full of all-stars unless you want to have a $200 mil+ payroll.

    The sky is not falling, and the Reds will do just fine.
    His point about the offense is accurate. As it currently stands there are only 2 reds' starters that are locks for an OPS+ over 100. That is problematic. I dont share his sentiment about the pitching though. The reds pitching should be fantastic again this year.

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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ho02&t=p&year=
    This, to me, is inconsistent.
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...&t=p&year=2013
    Notice the August trail off?
    Cueto has missed significant time 2 of the last 3 seasons due to injury.
    Cigrani has the mastery of only 1 pitch. How long can he be successful without a 2nd?
    I think my concerns are justified. That said, Cueto can have a full, healthy season. Bailey can pitch like he is capable 80% of the time this season. Leake can show he can finish what he starts. And Cigrani can come up with a couple new pitches and be the stud we all know he can be. But again, those are a lot of ifs.

  7. #6
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by bullseye View Post
    As we continue debating the Brandon Phillips "to trade or not to trade", it dawned on me that this alone will not make that huge of a difference. The 2014 Reds, as we stand here today, are still an offensively challenged team with 4 starting pitches who have question marks. Aside from Votto, we no longer have 1 player who is a plus .270 hitter in the everyday line up. Only BP is capable of proving me wrong here, and he is being shopped around. Should he go, that would leave us with a team full of .250 or worse. Cueto's health is a concern. Bailey still has yet to show he can be dominant on a consistent basis. Leake seems to run out of gas once August approaches, and Cigrani is still a question mark. Latos is the only guy I feel is not a guess or "we will see". My point is this. We still need a 3rd baseman, shortstop, catcher, center fielder, 2nd baseman (if Phillips is gone), and left fielder. Ervin and Winker are working their way up the ladder and could be here sooner than later, but things could get ugly before they get to GABP.
    While I generally agree that none of those guys are world beaters, they don't need to replace all of them. Replacing a couple while treading water with the others would go a long way. I think all but CF and maybe C are starting caliber major leaguers, but a team full of mediocrity usually results in a mediocre team. Add an above average or two to what we have and they'd be vastly improved. They screwed the pooch at catcher. The guys that could have upgraded that spot to strength status were out there for a reasonable price. Instead the Reds went with a AAAA journeyman.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  8. #7
    Member Moosie52's Avatar
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    All I ask is that the players show more enthusiasm than last season's team did.

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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    One of my friends (a Cubs fan) is insistent that the Reds need to gut the team and rebuild, because too many of the expected starters are near replacement-level players: Mes, Frazier, Cozart, an aging Phillips, whoever we pull out of the crypt to play left field, and whoever plays CF after Choo.

    I see his point, but I guess I like Phillips, Frazier, and Mes a whole lot more than he does.

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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Wow dump them all rebuild mode head for the hills.....

    Come on, really? This team has done what over the past 3 seasons? How did they win all those games?

    Sometimes Reds fans are just out of touch with the game and expectations...

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    markymark69 (12-17-2013)

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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Fan View Post
    Wow dump them all rebuild mode head for the hills.....

    Come on, really? This team has done what over the past 3 seasons? How did they win all those games?

    Sometimes Reds fans are just out of touch with the game and expectations...
    Not won A playoff series?

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    RedRover (12-19-2013), Reds&BuckeyeGuy (12-19-2013)

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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Let me quote a once famous songstress of our generation, "Crack is whack!"

    Put down whatever you are smoking and step away.

    Every show I watch about baseball the experts say that if the Reds either keep Cingani in the rotation or put Chapman there, the Reds are the best overall rotation in all of baseball. ALL of baseball.

    Bruce, Frazier, and Phillips can all hit .270 for the season. Heck Mesoraco could hit .270 once he starts to feel more comfortable in the big leagues. Don't forget last year was basically his rookie season, he has only played in 175 games. Ludwick is a career .262 hitter, that's not far from .270. So how many guys does that leave not hitting .270? Cozart and whomever plays CF? They might have a center fielder that can hit .270, so who cares if a slick fielding short stop hits .250? You can't have a team full of all-stars unless you want to have a $200 mil+ payroll.

    The sky is not falling, and the Reds will do just fine.
    Wow, you may be listening to the wrong experts. Not sure how you stretch the Reds rotation into the best in all of baseball. They're pretty good. But Cueto and Latos don't stand up to Kershaw and Greinke. The bottom three have potential but not consistency nor a track record in the case of Cingrani.

    It's the offense that sputters. I want to see what Walt can add this offseason. But, the Reds struggled with Choo. What are they gonna do without him?

    I don't see Chapman starting. That's such a gamble. But, if he does and snaps in, then talk to me about how good the rotation is.... Not until.

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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by indyscott View Post
    Not won A playoff series?
    Playoffs are a crap shoot, the best teams don't always win. I hold the regular season as the standard. Over the past 3 seasons the Reds have played well. We removed the issue of our playoff issues, so lets see what happens this season.

  17. #13
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfway between View Post
    Wow, you may be listening to the wrong experts. Not sure how you stretch the Reds rotation into the best in all of baseball. They're pretty good. But Cueto and Latos don't stand up to Kershaw and Greinke. The bottom three have potential but not consistency nor a track record in the case of Cingrani.

    It's the offense that sputters. I want to see what Walt can add this offseason. But, the Reds struggled with Choo. What are they gonna do without him?

    I don't see Chapman starting. That's such a gamble. But, if he does and snaps in, then talk to me about how good the rotation is.... Not until.
    The Reds struggled with Choo, but that was minus Ludwick. No he won't equal Choo's numbers, but it won't be as bad as people think he will be. Add Hamilton's superior D to center, along with the realization that Phillips was playing injured and that with consistent playing time, Mes will be a huge offense upgrade over Hanigan, and considering that Cueto, Broxton and Marshsll were out most of the year, then barring injury, the Reds may actually be as good as they were in 2013 if not better. The sky isn't falling. Sure this team has some issues I'd like to see addressed, but the outlook isn't as bleak as it seems

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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Fan View Post
    Playoffs are a crap shoot, the best teams don't always win. I hold the regular season as the standard. Over the past 3 seasons the Reds have played well. We removed the issue of our playoff issues, so lets see what happens this season.
    And here I thought it was about winning in the playoffs

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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by indyscott View Post
    And here I thought it was about winning in the playoffs
    I guess it depends on what you value more. Winnig the WS is nice, but does it mean you were the best team throughout the entire season or just got "hot" at the right time?


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