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Thread: Just too many holes to fill.

  1. #31
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by bullseye View Post
    The Reds put up a ton of numbers against bad pitching. Take a look at our numbers against opponents top 3 pitchers and you will be amazed at how bad we were.

    Just did Boston's data for 2013 because they scored the most runs in MLB with 853. They outscored the Reds by 155 runs.


    Even with the Red Sox potent offense and the use of DH-- they were shutout................

    11 times. Yup, the same number as the Reds. They scored 3 runs or less 61 times compared to the Reds 72. Remember, they have a DH while the Reds have to bat a pitcher. The Cards scored 3 runs or less 65 times.


    Boston of course padded their run total by scoring 9 or more runs 26 times for 285 runs. (The Reds had 178) So a difference of 114 runs.


    If your looking for an offense that always scores 2-3 runs a game, it won't happen. Even the Red Sox offense who scored 155 more runs than the Reds (or 22% more runs) still got shutout the same amount of times as Cincinnati did, and they had a DH in DAvod Ortiz who batted .309 with 30 HR's, 38 doubles and 78 walks for an .OBP of 395. Suffice to say, he did significantly better than what the Reds got hitting wise from all of their pitchers.

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    RedlegJake (12-18-2013)

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  4. #32
    Member Mike Honcho's Avatar
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ladeda View Post
    Just did Boston's data for 2013 because they scored the most runs in MLB with 853. They outscored the Reds by 155 runs.


    Even with the Red Sox potent offense and the use of DH-- they were shutout................

    11 times. Yup, the same number as the Reds. They scored 3 runs or less 61 times compared to the Reds 72. Remember, they have a DH while the Reds have to bat a pitcher. The Cards scored 3 runs or less 65 times.


    Boston of course padded their run total by scoring 9 or more runs 26 times for 285 runs. (The Reds had 178) So a difference of 114 runs.


    If your looking for an offense that always scores 2-3 runs a game, it won't happen. Even the Red Sox offense who scored 155 more runs than the Reds (or 22% more runs) still got shutout the same amount of times as Cincinnati did, and they had a DH in DAvod Ortiz who batted .309 with 30 HR's, 38 doubles and 78 walks for an .OBP of 395. Suffice to say, he did significantly better than what the Reds got hitting wise from all of their pitchers.
    You are cherry picking numbers to fit your own argument.
    They don't think it be like it is but it do.

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  5. #33
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Votto, Bruce then who?

    Winker??
    Lutz??

    Can't have too many LH hitters in my book. Most pitchers are right handed.

    There are a lot of Ho Hum RH Hitters who are strong against LHP. Johnny Gomes, Drew Stubbbs, Todd Frazier and even Mesoraco, who was awful last year, did well against LHP. It would be nice to have one big RH bat in the middle of it all, but the Reds have plenty of guys to make lefty starters pay for trying to neutralize Votto and Bruce. Phillip Ervin will be the man and sooner than everyone thinks IMO. Give me more good lefty bats to beat-up on the 70% of the pitchers who throw right handed and I'll take my chances.

    Also, the opinion of Lutz is way off. He's a horrible 1B but is quite agile in LF. He won't be an All Start IO, but he'll be a decent platoon OF along the lines of Matt Stairs with better defense. That will by just fine on a major league bench. He needs another year or so getting PAs in AAA though.
    I'm 100% agreeing with you on Ervin. I think he may be considered an elite prospect by next seasons end. His bat may rapidly solve the two or four hole in the Reds lineup fairly quickly.

  6. #34
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    I'm 100% agreeing with you on Ervin. I think he may be considered an elite prospect by next seasons end. His bat may rapidly solve the two or four hole in the Reds lineup fairly quickly.
    Add to that - besides Ervin, Winker is, imo, an elite bat (as compared to elite overall prospect). I also expect SMB to propel his status way up in the coming season as Frazier's heir apparent. Help is coming, the Reds just need to find a player or two who can help out for 2014.
    No - I am not from State Farm!

  7. #35
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Add to that - besides Ervin, Winker is, imo, an elite bat (as compared to elite overall prospect). I also expect SMB to propel his status way up in the coming season as Frazier's heir apparent. Help is coming, the Reds just need to find a player or two who can help out for 2014.
    Totally agree. I like the fact that those three guys thus far seem to know the strike zone, and aren't easily caught flailing at bad pitches as much as the Reds prospects of the past that were less contact and OBP driven and more power driven.

  8. #36
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Honcho View Post
    You are cherry picking numbers to fit your own argument.
    Nonetheless, what he says seems to support his argument.

  9. #37
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Fan View Post
    I think at this point in mid december with new leadership running this team and the roster still not complete it is impossible to say what will happen next season. At this point I believe the Pirates due to some losses of certain players are not the team they were at season end and the Cards are maybe the same or a little less as I am not sold on their new SS being that much of an offsensive force if he stoped juicing, so I am willing to wait an see what other moves Walt makes and what kind of lineup Price goes with before jumping off the ship...
    I think it will be a 3 way battle again, but I think Pittsburgh might regress to their post-ASB drop off like they did 2 years ago. The Cardinals have created even more questions about their team, but those questions always turn up in their favor since they get all the breaks. Not sure how the Reds will be w/o Choo.

  10. #38
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ladeda View Post
    "Originally Posted by bullseye View Post
    The Reds put up a ton of numbers against bad pitching. Take a look at our numbers against opponents top 3 pitchers and you will be amazed at how bad we were."




    You know, good pitchers shut down good hitting teams.

    To ease your mind on the Reds lineup in 2013.

    St Louis Cardinals 783 Runs Scored
    Cincinnati Reds 698 Runs Scored
    Atlanta Braves 688 Runs Scored.


    (Note: Colorado was 2nd with 706 runs, but they are in Coors and they get inflated hitting totals, so I just removed them and took the next highest scoring team in the NL which was the Braves)


    Times shutout.

    Cards. 11
    Reds. 11
    Braves. 17


    The more potent Cards lineup, the one that scored 85 more runs than the Reds were shutout the same amount of times. The Braves who are comparable to the Reds in overall runs scored, were shutout 6 more times.

    Times scoring 1,2 or 3 runs.

    Cards. 54 times
    Reds. 61 times
    Braves 61 times.

    Yes, the Cards scored 1,2 or 3 runs 7 fewer times than the Reds or Braves. Considering they have better hitting, not a surprise.


    Yes, the Reds padded their runs total by having some huge Run games. But so do all the other teams. Good teams punish bad pitchers.

    The Reds scored 9 runs or more 16 times and got 168 runs in those games.
    The Braves scored 9 or more runs 17 times and got 176 runs in those games.

    The Cards scored 9 runs or more 26 times and scored 285 runs in those games. 285 runs minus 168 = 117 runs. Overall the Cards outscored the Reds on the season by 85 runs. They did this primarily on blowing teams out more often than the Reds.


    The Reds are like other hitting teams. Sure they get shutout from time to time, but it's no different than any other team.

    Compare them to the Braves, because Cincy only scored 10 more runs than them the entire season.

    The Reds scored 3 runs or less 72 times. The Braves scored 3 runs or less 78 times.

    The Cards with their so called great offense was shut out as many times as the Reds were. You have to put things into perspective. To think that you can go the entire season and not have games where you score 2 runs or less quite a few times is silly.

    A Quick look @ the data suggests that the Reds weren't abnormal in terms of the games they scored 3 runs or less. They were better than the Braves, slightly worse than the Cardinals. Overall, the Reds were pretty solid offensively last year. Not awesome, but pretty darn good. If it wasn't for Coors field, they basically were the 2nd best hitting team in the NL. Not too shabby.
    Among all those stats, is there one for not hitting when we absolutely need a hit?? Like when our season is on the line and we need a win late in the year. Like the last two years.

  11. #39
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfway between View Post
    Nonetheless, what he says seems to support his argument.
    If his argument is that the reds offense isn't terrible, then I agree. It just doesn't have that top offense feel because they didn't blow too many teams out.

  12. #40
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by indyscott View Post
    If Peralta has his worse season ever it is an upgrade from what they had last year. And he juiced prior to 2013
    But they also loss Beltran which was a major bat in their lineup.

  13. #41
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Fan View Post
    But they also loss Beltran which was a major bat in their lineup.
    And replace him with Craig.

  14. #42
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by indyscott View Post
    And replace him with Craig.
    Okay, still don't see the Cards as improving themselves that much, stayed about the same. Right now I see them staying about even this offseason and the Reds and Pirates a step behind. Reds don't know what they have in Hamilton who will replace Choo and they have a stubborn pitcher in the pen who refuses to do what is best for the team. Pirates loss some nice late season additions and pitching.

  15. #43
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by indyscott View Post
    And replace him with Craig.
    They are really replacing him in the lineup with Adams, although Craig will be replacing him on the field. Adams has some pop, but struggles against lefties. I see a dropoff between him and Beltran.

  16. #44
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Fan View Post
    Okay, still don't see the Cards as improving themselves that much, stayed about the same. Right now I see them staying about even this offseason and the Reds and Pirates a step behind. Reds don't know what they have in Hamilton who will replace Choo and they have a stubborn pitcher in the pen who refuses to do what is best for the team. Pirates loss some nice late season additions and pitching.
    And the Cards have Taveras

  17. #45
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    Re: Just too many holes to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by indyscott View Post
    And the Cards have Taveras
    As in Oscar Taveras? Exactly what has he done on the ML roster to be considered a Plus at this point?


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