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Thread: ESPN's Top 10 Teams for 2014

  1. #16
    Grouch ac084c's Avatar
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    Re: ESPN's Top 10 Teams for 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Fan View Post
    Morneau I would agree, but Byrd had a huge impact for them down the stretch, one of the players I think that really kept them in the race and make the playoffs last year. I think loosing AJ if they don't resign him can hurt big time. HE owned the Reds it seemed like and while up there in age, did provide them win a quality pitcher many times out.
    Burnett meant about as much to them as Arroyo did to the Reds.

    And Choo meant a heck of a lot more to the Reds than Byrd did to the Pirates.

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    Re: ESPN's Top 10 Teams for 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by ac084c View Post
    Burnett meant about as much to them as Arroyo did to the Reds.

    And Choo meant a heck of a lot more to the Reds than Byrd did to the Pirates.
    We would disagree on that...

  4. #18
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    Re: ESPN's Top 10 Teams for 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Fan View Post
    We would disagree on that...
    They had identical wRC+, and nearly identical WAR in the second half - with Choo slightly worse because he was a worse defender.

    And Byrd saw a higher BABIP (.378) than Choo (.329), I guy who has been criticized by experts for his high BABIP.

    But I forgot, you're all about the RBIs, and since Byrd had 14 more than Choo (completely ignoring that Choo hit leadoff and Byrd hit 5th) then I guess you're right Byrd was more valuable (sarcasm detector needed).
    Last edited by ac084c; 12-31-2013 at 03:02 PM.

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    Re: ESPN's Top 10 Teams for 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by ac084c View Post
    Tell me you're serious.
    According to Johnny, Morneau meant more to the Pirates then say Votto meant to the reds.

    Pirates finished 2nd and reds finished 3rd is the criteria

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    Re: ESPN's Top 10 Teams for 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by ac084c View Post
    Tell me you're serious.
    Given the history of the Pirates, their lack of performance in the second half of the season in the two previous years, I believe both AJ and Byrd had more value to the Pirates and their results in the second half nad down the stretch then Bronson and Choo had for the Reds.

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    Re: ESPN's Top 10 Teams for 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Fan View Post
    Given the history of the Pirates, their lack of performance in the second half of the season in the two previous years, I believe both AJ and Byrd had more value to the Pirates and their results in the second half nad down the stretch then Bronson and Choo had for the Reds.
    But AJ was only 6-5 in the 2nd half of the season.

    Bronson was 7-5. THUS he had to be better in the 2nd half

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    Re: ESPN's Top 10 Teams for 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by indyscott View Post
    But AJ was only 6-5 in the 2nd half of the season.

    Bronson was 7-5. THUS he had to be better in the 2nd half
    Record wise yes, but again "value" to team. See "value" can't always be gaged by numbers, which drives numbers guys like you and others crazy. There is more to the game then just WAR and VORP and all the other made up Bill James numbers. That is what numbers guys can't understand that sometimes value is more then just numbers.

  9. #23
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    Re: ESPN's Top 10 Teams for 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Fan View Post
    Record wise yes, but again "value" to team. See "value" can't always be gaged by numbers, which drives numbers guys like you and others crazy. There is more to the game then just WAR and VORP and all the other made up Bill James numbers. That is what numbers guys can't understand that sometimes value is more then just numbers.
    In other words, you don't understand advanced statistics.

    Got it.

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    Re: ESPN's Top 10 Teams for 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Fan View Post
    Given the history of the Pirates, their lack of performance in the second half of the season in the two previous years, I believe both AJ and Byrd had more value to the Pirates and their results in the second half nad down the stretch then Bronson and Choo had for the Reds.
    Are you using the 2 pairs together for your comparison? McCutchen might be the only player more valuable to the Pirates than Choo was to the Reds. Choo was the best table-setter in baseball and I think a lot of Reds fans are trying to undervalue him now that he's gone. Do you think Phillips comes close to 100 RBI's without Choo in front of him?

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    Re: ESPN's Top 10 Teams for 2014

    The pirates clearly were better than the Reds last season, and proved it in the final four games. For that reason I cant argue the rankings too much, however come years end i see the Reds finishing higher. Im just not big on the Pirates this year. Like the Reds they lost big pieces without bringing much in so far this offseason. But where the two go in different directions are in potential. The reds have several individuals who could really improve over last seasons numbers(Cueto, Votto, Ludwick, maybe phillips, etc.). I dont see that as much with the Pirates. Liriano Could come close, but i dont see him duplicating last seasons dominance. Locke or Morton? They both seem to have played over their heads a bit. Gerritt Cole ill give that one to them. I hope he faces the reds minimal times next year. but then no Burrnett and possibly Edinson Volquez? I dont see that rotation being as strong. Then the bullpen was phenomenal last year. Nowhere to go but down really, and bullpens are often up and down from year to year.

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    Re: ESPN's Top 10 Teams for 2014

    These rankings are fine, no real qualms. Once you get past the obvious top-tier teams (Detroit, Texas, LAD, Cards, Red Sox) it's pretty much a wash anyway.

    I do think that the Pirates will regress in 2014 though, in a similar fashion to the Reds' 2011 season. I think they're trending upward overall and will be competitive over the next several seasons, but without any significant upgrades and losing a few pieces I don't see them being any better than the Reds next year.

  14. #27
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    Re: ESPN's Top 10 Teams for 2014

    Not sure how the Pirates are #10. They haven't gained anyone and picked up Volquez on top of that. He hurts the team, not help.

    Also, nationals and KC? EPSN doesn't want to leave that hype train.

  15. #28
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    Re: ESPN's Top 10 Teams for 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Rando View Post
    Not sure how the Pirates are #10. They haven't gained anyone and picked up Volquez on top of that. He hurts the team, not help.

    Also, nationals and KC? EPSN doesn't want to leave that hype train.
    They'll have the same pen as last year, though - and the pen was the primary reason they had a winning season.

    The Nationals got better on pitching and they were already the favorite last year - shouldn't be a surprise. I'm surprised ESPN didn't put them higher, actually.

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    Re: ESPN's Top 10 Teams for 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by ac084c View Post
    In other words, you don't understand advanced statistics.

    Got it.
    No I just buy into that much. There is a way to make numbers say whatever you wish for them to say.

  17. #30
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    Re: ESPN's Top 10 Teams for 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Fan View Post
    No I just buy into that much. There is a way to make numbers say whatever you wish for them to say.

    This is true - but there are some numbers that more accurately reflect a player's value than the eye test or traditional stats.

    The sooner you come to terms with that, the better off you'll be.


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