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Thread: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

  1. #226
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    No, this isn't what I'm saying.

    If we are to argue that current cheating is okay because of past cheating, then yeah, cheating is cheating.

    If you're going to extrapolate that to suggest that Hank Aaron's one time amphetamine trial is akin to what Bonds did, we are going to make distinctions.

    Yes, using steroids is cheating. But it goes to a degree that we have not seen, at least as results are concerned. There are levels of cheating, just like there are levels of crime.

    If you just want to say spit balls=stealing signs=amphetamines=steroids=bionic arms I think you lose that argument.
    So now you no longer think cheating is cheating or are you admitting it depends upon which ever position helps your cause the most? Because you've pretty clearly took the thread to task earlier because "cheating is cheating"....
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  3. #227
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I havent even tried because you can't prove that he didn't which BTW is why he is banned from baseball.
    Maybe you should spend some time trying. I didn't think fact less assumptions were allowed in your narrow world. Bringing up something that everyone knows at the end of your post? Was that for some kind of effect? Didn't work for me.

    You mess up, you don't get a plaque! I'm good with that. Period.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  4. #228
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    Every time, Dom.
    Do greenie users belong in the HOF or was their cheating excusable to you? It seems apparent that you aren't willing to admit that Pete may have acted in a way that prioritized his bet over his team. What other inconsistencies aren't you owning?

    Mull it over via PM a little more.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  5. #229
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    So now you no longer think cheating is cheating or are you admitting it depends upon which ever position helps your cause the most? Because you've pretty clearly took the thread to task earlier because "cheating is cheating"....
    I took you to task because you seemed to suggest that past cheating excuses future cheating.

    My point was sort of like the one you seemed to understand in the Chris Christie thread: just because one politician does something bad is not an excuse for another to do something bad.

    I was not saying that all cheating is equal, however.

    If you wish to engage in Greg Brady rules , we aren 't going to get far.
    If you're watchin' a parade, make sure you stand in one spot, don't follow it, it never changes. And if the parade is boring, run in the opposite direction, you will fast-foward the parade. --Mitch Hedberg

  6. #230
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    Maybe you should spend some time trying. I didn't think fact less assumptions were allowed in your narrow world. Bringing up something that everyone knows at the end of your post? Was that for some kind of effect? Didn't work for me.

    You mess up, you don't get a plaque! I'm good with that. Period.
    It's not a fact less assumption. Pete has admitted he gambled on games he influenced. We have no basis for ruling out the possibility that he exerted his influence in a negative way.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  7. #231
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    I took you to task because you seemed to suggest that past cheating excuses future cheating.

    My point was sort of like the one you seemed to understand in the Chris Christie thread: just because one politician does something bad is not an excuse for another to do something bad.

    I was not saying that all cheating is equal, however.

    If you wish to engage in Greg Brady rules , we aren 't going to get far.
    What you're doing is shifting goal posts. I get why you don't want to kick Hank to the curb but your argument in this thread and others related to PEDs hasn't been consistent.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  8. #232
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    What you're doing is shifting goal posts. I get why you don't want to kick Hank to the curb but your argument in this thread and others related to PEDs hasn't been consistent.
    I don't have a dog in this fight, but is the idea here supposed to be that greenies = steroids in terms of severity in cheating, or did I not see another point that was made? I think it would be hard to compare those two.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

  9. #233
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    I don't have a dog in this fight, but is the idea here supposed to be that greenies = steroids in terms of severity in cheating, or did I not see another point that was made? I think it would be hard to compare those two.
    Cheating has been proposed as a litmus for entry into the HOF except when it's not a litmus.

    This isn't moving goal posts, it's a lack of goal posts.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  10. #234
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Do greenie users belong in the HOF or was their cheating excusable to you? It seems apparent that you aren't willing to admit that Pete may have acted in a way that prioritized his bet over his team. What other inconsistencies aren't you owning?

    Mull it over via PM a little more.
    I have no proof that Pete ever bet against his team. If you want to justify PED use with greenie use, then by all means you will need to go back and throw the greenie users out if you feel it is comparable on that level. You might even keep digging deeper but eventually, you will get down to guys that broke the law at some point for spittin' on the sidewalk. And just so you know, experience would never let me go down the PM road with you again, so I wouldn't be expecting anything.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  11. #235
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    I have no proof that Pete ever bet against his team. If you want to justify PED use with greenie use, then by all means you will need to go back and throw the greenie users out if you feel it is comparable on that level. You might even keep digging deeper but eventually, you will get down to guys that broke the law at some point for spittin' on the sidewalk. And just so you know, experience would never let me go down the PM road with you again, so I wouldn't be expecting anything.
    PMs from you are unwelcome and I certainly wasn't suggesting you send them to me.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  12. #236
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by CySeymour View Post
    Ok, to put my position out there to be clear:

    1) I do think Rose should be in the HOF, but I don't have much pity for him that he is not.

    2) I would vote for Clemens and Bonds for the HOF, but like Pete, I don't have any pity for them either. And I can respect the position of those that feel they do not belong in Cooperstown.

    3) I do feel gambling on baseball is worse then using PED's.
    My positions:

    1) I personally used PEDs to attempt to gain an advantage while playing in high school in the early to mid 1990's.

    2) My wife's cousin is someone who was caught up in the BALCO scandal.

    3) I personally believe that gambling and PEDs are on nearly equal footing as to their damaging effect on the game.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  13. #237
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Also, I believe Rose, Clemens, Bonds and others all deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  14. #238
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Cheating has been proposed as a litmus for entry into the HOF except when it's not a litmus.

    This isn't moving goal posts, it's a lack of goal posts.
    I don't think it's just "If you ever cheat you can't get in."

    Nobody is moving goal posts- we can further explain our comments. We can refine positions. Heck, we can misspeak.

    This is typical Jojo. You argue when you can, then go into this weird mode where the conversation can't continue because you get hung up on something that you're simply not going to let go of.

    I 'm perfectly happy to walk away if you don 't wish to further the discussion.
    If you're watchin' a parade, make sure you stand in one spot, don't follow it, it never changes. And if the parade is boring, run in the opposite direction, you will fast-foward the parade. --Mitch Hedberg

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  16. #239
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    My positions:

    1) I personally used PEDs to attempt to gain an advantage while playing in high school in the early to mid 1990's.

    2) My wife's cousin is someone who was caught up in the BALCO scandal.

    3) I personally believe that gambling and PEDs are on nearly equal footing as to their damaging effect on the game.
    Fair enough.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

  17. #240
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    I don't think it's just "If you ever cheat you can't get in."

    Nobody is moving goal posts- we can further explain our comments. We can refine positions. Heck, we can misspeak.

    This is typical Jojo. You argue when you can, then go into this weird mode where the conversation can't continue because you get hung up on something that you're simply not going to let go of.

    I 'm perfectly happy to walk away if you don 't wish to further the discussion.
    Youve changed the parameters of the argument. I'm very willing to debate but you can't have it all ways. That's not actually discussion. You really don't get to pawn that off on me.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner


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