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Thread: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

  1. #61
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    My basic opinion on Pete has always been make him eligible for the Hall but not allow him to be hired by any team in an active role or even be connected to the team in a volunteer role. The mans on the field accomplishments say that he should have a chance to enter the Hall, but his gambling says that he should no longer be able to actively be part of the sport on the field.

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    CySeymour (01-12-2014)

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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    One guy broke a rule that he knew would get him banned from the game if he was caught. Other guys broke a rule where there was no punishment on the books at all until 2004 (I think it was 2004) and when a punishment was put in the books, it was not being banned from baseball until your third strike.
    And what is more damaging to the integrity of the game.... an apparently isolated guy betting on baseball and the obvious doubt it casts due to the conflict of interests it creates (and lets face it, it's not reasonable to assume that an individual wouldn't bet against his team or do things, even if only unconsciously, that would hurt his team's chances) or guys doing whatever it takes to perform at their highest level amidst a culture that essentially embraces the behavior then and historically?

    It's not appropriate to conflate the two. Even Pete admits gambling would be a lot worse if there were a scale.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by lidspinner View Post
    I dont think anyone disagrees with what you posted Doug.....I agree with the basis of that argument as well.....but for all the steroid users and drug abusers and wife beaters out there that are in the hall or will be in the hall, I think its more of a "whats right and whats wrong" deal......

    being voted into the Hall Of Fame is a luxury and a not something that is written in the rule book as being if you log this stat line then you make the HOF.....the HOF votes on players because its subject to so many more variables than just a stat line. True taking steroids was not in the rule book as a rule that would get you abolished from Baseball and the HOF but it was still wrong and still illegal.....Using cocaine or other drugs, painkillers or abusing alcohol or just being a piece of crap of a citizen are all things that should go into ones vote......and I am sure some voters could care less, but others do care and they are allowed to use whatever variables they want when casting their vote...........I think the average fan of Baseball just wants voters to hold these players more accountable for their actions than just that stat line.....these players are making millions and millions and living high on the hog because us fans by jerseys and buy tickets and take our families to games and we make it a point to watch the games on TV when we cant make it to the game which helps ratings which helps teams get more money from TV deals.......so these players are huge parts of our lives, using illegal drugs and/or being an idiot of a person should be counted against you when voting takes place.........the issue here is, there are several of these idiots in the HOF right now who have done drugs, beat their wives, cheated the game, and was just a idiot in general......we cant take back their spot in the Hall but we can try and make sure others like them dont make it in....

    with that said, I think the average fan can agree that Pete has paid his debt, putting him in the Hall now will at least give him a few years of fame and allow him to enjoy his baseball records.....putting him in the Hall will also bring all his negative traits to the surface and he will have to deal with it all over again....but I think that Pete would be fine with it....he appears to want younger players to learn from his mistakes so I see no harm in putting Petes name on the voters ballot and letting them decide......

    I think when the rule makers were making the rules for baseball and they put the betting on baseball rule in the books, I dont think steroids were a issue like they are today or they would have put cheating for records in the rule book right next to the gambling column......

    Doug, I see your point and I agree.....but I just dont think rule makers could foresee that steroids would ever be what they are today....in fact, back then I dont think it was even known what steroids do there surely wasnt as many designer steroids like there is today so how would they have known back then how huge it would be today? Baseballs players union is so strong that trying to kick a player out for life for failing a steroid test the first time would never pass.....players union will never allow that.....I dont think the players union was as big or strong back when rules about betting were implemented....just saying...
    The use of the question mark really ruined this post for me.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  6. #64
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by lidspinner View Post
    I dont think the players union was as big or strong back when rules about betting were implemented....just saying...
    The players union didn't exist for 60-70 years after that rule was put in place. What Pete did was far more damaging for the game than players taking PEDs.

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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The players union didn't exist for 60-70 years after that rule was put in place. What Pete did was far more damaging for the game than players taking PEDs.
    Respectfully, I disagree. What Pete did doesn't make me question the authenticity of every player, every team, every game, every season, and every record that I've ever seen in the majority of my lifetime watching baseball. That's what PEDS have done.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

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    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    Respectfully, I disagree. What Pete did doesn't make me question the authenticity of every player, every team, every game, every season, and every record that I've ever seen in the majority of my lifetime watching baseball. That's what PEDS have done.
    Study the 1919 Black Sox. That is exactly what came out of that.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by CySeymour View Post
    Study the 1919 Black Sox. That is exactly what came out of that.
    I'm familiar with The Black Sox. Different eras. Difference in the parties at fault. Different situation all around.

    You might as well compare the Civil War to the Vietnam War.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

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    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    I'm familiar with The Black Sox. Different eras. Difference in the parties at fault. Different situation all around.

    You might as well compare the Civil War to the Vietnam War.
    No, the fallout is point. In fact, if the 1919 Black Sox happened today, I imagine with more advanced media, it would be much worse. There would be no trust in the game. Anytime a highly favored team would lose, there would be strong suggestions of a series being thrown by gamblers. Cheating to lose is much, much worse then cheating to win.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Pet Rose = Apples

    Steroids = Hand Grenades

    Worst comparison on the Rose side by far.

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    CySeymour (01-12-2014)

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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by CySeymour View Post
    No, the fallout is point. In fact, if the 1919 Black Sox happened today, I imagine with more advanced media, it would be much worse. There would be no trust in the game. Anytime a highly favored team would lose, there would be strong suggestions of a series being thrown by gamblers. Cheating to lose is much, much worse then cheating to win.
    I had zero trust in the game during the steroid era. Zero. I felt as if we never knew who the best players, best teams really were, who deserved to win. I don't see the difference between that and the fallout from the Black Sox scandal.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    I had zero trust in the game during the steroid era. Zero. I felt as if we never knew who the best players, best teams really were, who deserved to win. I don't see the difference between that and the fallout from the Black Sox scandal.
    You knew who the best player and best teams were. You may not have known if they were PED free (the teams never were, they all had someone), but you knew who was the best.

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    CySeymour (01-12-2014)

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    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Let's look at the 1987 and 1988 Major League Baseball seasons. Pete Rose, while managing the Cincinnati Reds, committed baseball's cardinal sin by betting on his team. Pete Rose did not collect a hit, single, double, triple, home run, or throw a pitch in the 1987 season. Pete Rose's statistical numbers, his records, had already been accumulated on the field. At this time, Roger Maris was still the single season home run leader, and Hank Aaron held the record for most career home runs. The 60 home run mark in a season had only been eclipsed twice, once by Maris and once by Ruth. Did Rose gambling on the Reds make you question the numbers put up by 1987 MVPs Andre Dawson and George Bell? What about the 1988 MVP seasons of Kirk Gibson and Jose Canseco?

    Now, let's look at PEDS. Some of baseball's most hallowed numbers crumbled under the rampant usage of players' cheating to earn for themselves more and more money. 60 home runs were eclipsed 6 times, and twice, 70 home runs. Every home run, every game, every season, every championship, every award... they've all been questioned as to their legitimacy.

    I'm sorry, but if you think one isolated manager betting on his team has been more damaging to the integrity of the game than the rampant cheating that has brought down records once thought unbreakable, then you're still living in 1919.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

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    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    I'm sorry, but if you think one isolated manager betting on his team has been more damaging to the integrity of the game than the rampant cheating that has brought down records once thought unbreakable, then you're still living in 1919.
    I will have to refer you to WOY's post above about apples and hand grenades.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

  23. #74
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post

    I'm sorry, but if you think one isolated manager betting on his team has been more damaging to the integrity of the game than the rampant cheating that has brought down records once thought unbreakable, then you're still living in 1919.
    If you think Pete began betting in 1987 when he was a manager, I'm sorry, but you are living in a fantasy land. First off, he wrote in his book that the first time he openly talked about it in mixed company was the 1986 playoffs. He had been doing it for a while before that.

    People are going to take gambling more seriously than doing something to make you perform better, regardless of your reason for trying to perform better (be is you want more money, more fame, or whatever else). Gambling leads to a much more slippery slope of potential taking away trying to win games than taking some sort of performance enhancing drug. All of which is pretty silly when we truly think about it. While things may not be illegal, you can get things today that didn't exist in 1960 that absolutely, 100% make you a better athlete. They make you bigger, faster and stronger. And there are 50 of them. That are all legal to take.

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    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Kapler: Rose Should Not Be In Hall Of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    Respectfully, I disagree. What Pete did doesn't make me question the authenticity of every player, every team, every game, every season, and every record that I've ever seen in the majority of my lifetime watching baseball. That's what PEDS have done.
    You aren't going to convince the historians that cheating is bad.

    They honestly believe that the greatest players of all time coincidentally played all at the same time.

    Albert Belle was AWESOME, man. LOL...
    If you're watchin' a parade, make sure you stand in one spot, don't follow it, it never changes. And if the parade is boring, run in the opposite direction, you will fast-foward the parade. --Mitch Hedberg


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