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View Poll Results: Was Jeff Bagwell a PED user in his playing days?

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  • It is more likely he was

    48 64.86%
  • It is more likely he was not

    26 35.14%
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Thread: Bagwell a user

  1. #16
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfboy View Post
    I'm with you. I mean what are we even using as a basis for voting? The fact that he outperformed his counting stats in the minors? The fact that he played in an era where steroids were used? Seriously?
    Determinations made on imperfect or incomplete knowledge of fact(s) is what people do. It's called life. There's no consequence to this poll, I don't see the problem.
    It's irrelevant, so is everything else we do on this board. It's called entertainment.
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

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  4. #17
    On the brink wolfboy's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper View Post
    Determinations made on imperfect or incomplete knowledge of fact(s) is what people do. It's called life. There's no consequence to this poll, I don't see the problem.
    It's irrelevant, so is everything else we do on this board. It's called entertainment.
    Even if I agreed with you, why does it need a separate thread? It's been discussed to death elsewhere.
    How do we know he's not Mel Torme?

  5. #18
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Without proof or an admission I am not going to condemn him. It was an era where I think most players used something or other in the PED range. Since baseball basically turned a blind eye I don't see the point of all the crucifying. I might put an asterisk - "played during the PED era" or something but I would not exclude these guys. Bagwell should make the HoF.
    Organize the Hall of Fame by eras (Dead Ball Era, Golden Era, Expansion Era, PED Era). Put up a plaque describing the historical conditions that define the era. Players who played in that era have their plaques in that section. Keep the players' plaques as a neutral description of that player's career. That way you can acknowledge the era without casting aspersions about a particular player on their plaque.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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  7. #19
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Where's the third choice "I don't really care one way or the other"?
    I assume that for those of us who don't care, we simply don't vote.

    Or should that option be on every poll?

  8. #20
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    I assume that for those of us who don't care, we simply don't vote.

    Or should that option be on every poll?
    I thought Canadians were nice.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  9. #21
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    I thought Canadians were nice.
    I wasn't trying to be un-nice.

    Even if you don't care if Bagwell took PEDs, you might still have an opinion as to whether you're more inclined to think he did or not.

  10. #22
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Bagwell's minor league stats:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/mi...d=bagwel001jef

    Not proof. Yet, given the era, and the way he looked physically by the time he was in the bigs, it crosses the likelihood threshold for me.
    As I addressed yesterday.....

    Bagwell played 1.5 minor league seasons. 1989, the year he was drafted (half of a season) and 1990 (full season).

    Let's dive into that. In 1990, he played in New Britain. He had 34 doubles, 7 triples and 4 home runs. On the surface, that looks solid, but unspectacular. Of course, only two other guys on the team topped 20 doubles and the team leader in home runs had a grand total of 5. Yes, 5 home runs led that entire team. The next year the New Britain team leader had 8 home runs and only one other guy on the team had 5. In 1989 three guys topped the 3 home run mark for New Britain with the leader being Mo Vaughn at 8.

    I don't have park factors for those years, but something tells me that it was really tough to hit for power in that park.

    How about his first year when he was drafted. Well, it came in the league that is still known as the worst hitting environment in the minors, the Florida State League. The entire league had five players hit 10+ home runs that season.

    Look, I get it if you want to believe that Bagwell used. But using his minor league numbers in 1.5 seasons where he very clearly played in very tough power environments doesn't do it for me.

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  12. #23
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Echo. Echo. Echo.
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  13. #24
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Without proof or an admission I am not going to condemn him. It was an era where I think most players used something or other in the PED range. Since baseball basically turned a blind eye I don't see the point of all the crucifying. I might put an asterisk - "played during the PED era" or something but I would not exclude these guys. Bagwell should make the HoF.
    I don't even like adding that asterisk. It implies there is a belief that you (whoever decided to put that asterisk there) think he did something.

  14. #25
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfboy View Post
    Even if I agreed with you, why does it need a separate thread? It's been discussed to death elsewhere.
    Perhaps. What are the parameters for length of discussion?
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

    http://dalmady.blogspot.com

  15. #26
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    If this were a legal question, I don't think there's any real evidence to support the claim. No way can you convict him; you could barely bring a charge against him.

    But answering the question in terms of my best guess given everything we know about the sport and the player, I would say yes. It's not an emphatic yes, but it's something like 60/40 in my mind.

    I would include Biggio, Piazza and Luis Gonzalez on the list too. To be clear, if I had to guess, I think something like 30% of players in the "PED era" tried PEDs. I think most players that used them only used them for a relatively short period of time. The percentage of guys who used over multiple seasons is probably under 5%. But I also think the PEDs should player zero role in whether or not the player is elected to HOF. So take all that for whatever it's worth.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  16. #27
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    I prefer to vote against him because he was a right handed hitter, that saw a .040 SLG increase when the abomination that is the Crawford Boxes was visited upon the NL Central.
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

  17. #28
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    I voted that it was more likely that he did, but only because I would vote that way for every player in his era.

    If he did, I don't think it had a big effect on his production. He's was a great hitter as an ametuer, minor leaguer and major leaguer. His power increase, not HR increase, but power increase seemed natural. He was always an elite hitter. If he took PED's, they weren't the reason for his success.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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  19. #29
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Where's the third choice "I don't really care one way or the other"?
    Or just a "None of the above" option.

    I don't get how I'm supposed to determine the likelihood of something about which I have minimal information.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  21. #30
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Or just a "None of the above" option.

    I don't get how I'm supposed to determine the likelihood of something about which I have minimal information.
    Use the Redszone scientific method


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