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View Poll Results: Was Jeff Bagwell a PED user in his playing days?

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  • It is more likely he was

    48 64.86%
  • It is more likely he was not

    26 35.14%
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Thread: Bagwell a user

  1. #31
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    In 1989 three guys topped the 3 home run mark for New Britain with the leader being Mo Vaughn at 8.
    Jeff Bagwell in New Britain: 4 HRs in 569 plate appearances

    Mo Vaughn in New Britain: 8 HRs 275 plate appearances
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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  3. #32
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Jeff Bagwell in New Britain: 4 HRs in 569 plate appearances

    Mo Vaughn in New Britain: 8 HRs 275 plate appearances
    Those 8 home runs were still the most by any player on the team for a 3 year stretch.

    Again, the year that Bagwell played there Eric Wedge led the team in homers with 5. From 1987-1991 no one hit double digit homers for New Britain. You can slice it up how you want it with playing time if you want to, but something about that ballpark was making it very difficult to hit homers in.

    1991 Eastern League team HR totals:
    94
    88
    83
    80
    76
    55
    52
    41 <New Britain

    1990 Eastern League team HR totals:
    84
    77
    71
    69
    52
    47
    39
    31 <New Britain

    1989 Eastern League team HR totals:
    96
    90
    88
    83
    66
    59
    57
    42 <New Britain

    1988 Eastern League team HR totals:
    83
    71
    64
    61
    60
    51
    51
    34 <New Britain

    1987 Eastern League team HR totals:
    113
    101
    98
    97
    84
    79
    74
    64 <New Britain

    Every single year they were EASILY the worst HR team in the league. Was the Boston system just that poor for 5 straight years? Possibly. Is it likely? No.

  4. #33
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    You can slice it up how you want it with playing time if you want to, but something about that ballpark was making it very difficult to hit homers in.
    What about other half of the schedule where they were on the road, in those other parks that surrendered double and triple the HRs of what New Britain's did? He should have had roughly 285 PAs in those parks.

  5. #34
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Forget HR's. Look at his SLG.

    Minors:

    .415
    .457

    First two years in MLB:

    .437
    .444

    Then at age 25, he reached his prime and turned the corner. Really nothing there that's suspicious.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  6. #35
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    What about other half of the schedule where they were on the road, in those other parks that surrendered double and triple the HRs of what New Britain's did? He should have had roughly 285 PAs in those parks.
    Again, look at the totals for the teams in the league. Every year New Britain was EASILY at the bottom of the list. Here is how many more home runs the 2nd worst team in the league had over New Britain: 27%, 26%, 36%, 50%, 16%. Yes, he plays on the road roughly half of the time, but we all know that guys tend to hit worse on the road to begin with. Beyond that, I don't know since we don't have the splits to look at. What I do know is that New Britain was a terrible place to hit for power, yet people are using Bagwell in New Britain as a reason to say he took steroids. It's crazy.

  7. #36
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    The players union allowed "it" to happen so it's perfectly acceptable and reasonable to arbitrarily accuse a player of "it".
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  8. #37
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Forget HR's. Look at his SLG.

    Minors:

    .415
    .457

    First two years in MLB:

    .437
    .444

    Then at age 25, he reached his prime and turned the corner. Really nothing there that's suspicious.
    Compare Bagwell's transition to the majors -- straight out of AA -- to Mo Vaughn's. Vaughn, whose power in AA far outstripped Bagwell's, spent some developmental time in AAA (parts of 3 seasons), then went to the bigs and had an OPS+ of below 100 for his first 500-600 ABs. Bagwell comes out of the shoot, straight out of AA, at an OPS+ of 139. In the Astrodome, a tough hitter's park. Two years later, he's slugging 1.200+. In the Dome. Right in the middle of the steroid era.

    That said, I know folks will see what they want to see.
    Last edited by lollipopcurve; 01-08-2014 at 08:27 PM.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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    Norm Chortleton (01-08-2014)

  10. #38
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Compare Bagwell's transition to the majors -- straight out of AA -- to Mo Vaughn's. Vaughn, whose power in AA far outstripped Bagwell's, spent some developmental time in AAA (parts of 3 seasons), then went to the bigs and had an OPS+ of below 100 for his first 500-600 ABs. Bagwell comes out of the shoot, straight out of AA, at an OPS+ of 139. In the Astrodome, a tough hitter's park. Two years later, he's slugging 1.200+. In the Dome. Right in the middle of the steroid era.

    That said, I know folks will see what they want to see.
    Bagwell was a better, more polished hitter at a younger age than Vaughn. The big difference between the two was the hit tool, batting average, not power.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  11. #39
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Those 8 home runs were still the most by any player on the team for a 3 year stretch.

    Again, the year that Bagwell played there Eric Wedge led the team in homers with 5. From 1987-1991 no one hit double digit homers for New Britain. You can slice it up how you want it with playing time if you want to, but something about that ballpark was making it very difficult to hit homers in.

    1991 Eastern League team HR totals:
    94
    88
    83
    80
    76
    55
    52
    41 <New Britain

    1990 Eastern League team HR totals:
    84
    77
    71
    69
    52
    47
    39
    31 <New Britain

    1989 Eastern League team HR totals:
    96
    90
    88
    83
    66
    59
    57
    42 <New Britain

    1988 Eastern League team HR totals:
    83
    71
    64
    61
    60
    51
    51
    34 <New Britain

    1987 Eastern League team HR totals:
    113
    101
    98
    97
    84
    79
    74
    64 <New Britain

    Every single year they were EASILY the worst HR team in the league. Was the Boston system just that poor for 5 straight years? Possibly. Is it likely? No.
    I just looked at some of those rosters. How many people played on those teams who had any sort of career with decent power numbers?

    Ps: the great Greg Blosser hit 22 in 1992.

  12. #40
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Compare Bagwell's transition to the majors -- straight out of AA -- to Mo Vaughn's. Vaughn, whose power in AA far outstripped Bagwell's, spent some developmental time in AAA (parts of 3 seasons), then went to the bigs and had an OPS+ of below 100 for his first 500-600 ABs. Bagwell comes out of the shoot, straight out of AA, at an OPS+ of 139. In the Astrodome, a tough hitter's park. Two years later, he's slugging 1.200+. In the Dome. Right in the middle of the steroid era.

    That said, I know folks will see what they want to see.
    Bagwell in AA had a .123 IsoP
    Vaughn in AA had a .159 IsoP

    Better? Sure. Far oustripped him? Nah.

    Vaughn was a year younger though, which is worth noting (both for the reason that Vaughn showed better power that season, but also that Bagwell transitioned more quickly - which his age would give him a slight advantage in doing).

  13. #41
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Two nonidentical players developed differently? That's pretty damning.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  14. #42
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I just looked at some of those rosters. How many people played on those teams who had any sort of career with decent power numbers?

    Ps: the great Greg Blosser hit 22 in 1992.
    Blosser hit 22 in 1992. The rest of the team hit 39 in 4501 plate appearances.

    I imagine you could look at ANY of those team rosters and say the same thing. That is kind of how it works.

    1990 Albany-Colonie Yankees led the EL in team homers. 7 Major League position players on that team. Pat Kelly and Bernie Williams were the only guys I even recognize the names of though. They hit 8 homers each, at age 21 and 22, in 1041 combined plate appearances. That team though hit 171% more home runs than New Britain did.

  15. #43
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Two nonidentical players developed differently? That's pretty damning.
    Brandon Larson and Joey Votto had similar minor league numbers at the same ages. Votto developed faster and better. Hmmmmmmmmm...
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  16. #44
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Brandon Larson and Joey Votto had similar minor league numbers at the same ages. Votto developed faster and better. Hmmmmmmmmm...
    No they didn't. Larson never walked more than 39 times in a season. Joey Votto walked 70+ times in four minor league seasons, one other season was just half of a season the year he was drafted (walked 21 times) and the other time he only walked 51 times. Of course in that season he had to take the first pitch of every at bat as a mandate by the organization for every player and soon enough other teams figured it out and just grooved fastballs over the plate to start at bats and everyone began their PA down 0-1.

  17. #45
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    Re: Bagwell a user

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No they didn't. Larson never walked more than 39 times in a season. Joey Votto walked 70+ times in four minor league seasons, one other season was just half of a season the year he was drafted (walked 21 times) and the other time he only walked 51 times. Of course in that season he had to take the first pitch of every at bat as a mandate by the organization for every player and soon enough other teams figured it out and just grooved fastballs over the plate to start at bats and everyone began their PA down 0-1.
    I was joking, but thanks for even more info to back up my point.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.


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