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Thread: Walt optimistic on Bailey extension

  1. #211
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Walt optimistic on Bailey extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Can anyone imagine Billy Beane losing a Bailey caliber pitcher for a sandwich pick?
    .
    Beane would've probably never traded for Latos and would've traded Bailey long before now. Heck, Cueto, Votto, and Phillips would be gone to. Chapman would be being shopped too probably.

    I really don't want to emulate the A's model. Sure, they are better at doing the complete teardown and rebuild than anyone else in baseball, but that's a depressing team to follow.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

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  3. #212
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    Re: Walt optimistic on Bailey extension

    Quote Originally Posted by dubc47834 View Post
    I don't get this line of thinking!!!
    Standards. These aren't the clown car Reds of the 2000s anymore. They should be doing better given all the talent that's on the team at this point.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

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  5. #213
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    Re: Walt optimistic on Bailey extension

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Beane would've probably never traded for Latos and would've traded Bailey long before now. Heck, Cueto, Votto, and Phillips would be gone to. Chapman would be being shopped too probably.

    I really don't want to emulate the A's model. Sure, they are better at doing the complete teardown and rebuild than anyone else in baseball, but that's a depressing team to follow.
    Beane would tell you he has no alternative in his market.

    Reds don't have to emulate Beane precisely, move for move.

    But if the budget is a big issue they need to avoid simply letting players depart in exchange for sandwich draft picks. Sign them early or trade them for full value.

  6. #214
    Member Captain Hook's Avatar
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    Re: Walt optimistic on Bailey extension

    I would really like the Reds to sign Homer and sooner or later they might. It's not easy when you're dealing with a confident guy that could earn himself a fortune this year. And by a fortune I mean much more than what any of us would want the Reds forking out right now. Homer knows it, Walt knows it and we know it. This is probably just going to have to play out. It's just like it was with Choo, Homer has a career year and he'll price himself out of Cincinnati.

  7. #215
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    Re: Walt optimistic on Bailey extension

    What about Tampa? They aggressively move most guys just ahead of their expensive years. Turned shields into will Myers a year ago. It's how a team with a limited payroll can keep the talent stocked.

  8. #216
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    Re: Walt optimistic on Bailey extension

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    What about Tampa? They aggressively move most guys just ahead of their expensive years. Turned shields into will Myers a year ago. It's how a team with a limited payroll can keep the talent stocked.
    WAIT, YOU MEAN THEIR WINDOW DIDNT CLOSE AFTER 2008!?

    Oh wait, they had a proactive front office who actually knows how to budget and keep the talent flow coming.

  9. #217
    All Fired Up Revering4Blue's Avatar
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    Re: Walt optimistic on Bailey extension

    Reds don't have to emulate Beane precisely, move for move.

    But if the budget is a big issue they need to avoid simply letting players depart in exchange for sandwich draft picks. Sign them early or trade them for full value.
    What about Tampa? They aggressively move most guys just ahead of their expensive years. Turned shields into will Myers a year ago. It's how a team with a limited payroll can keep the talent stocked.
    Couldn't agree more.

    Such scenarios allow for "reloading", rather than rebuilding. I, for one, do not believe that adopting such a blueprint will set us back to the lost decade, as some fear, for at least two reasons:

    * This franchise has a solid track record of developing positional players/bats.

    * The problems which prevented the Reds -- as a franchise -- from developing starting pitching have been seemingly corrected. The end of the roid era has kind of placed pitching at much closer to an even keel league-wide, as well.

    Add these factors, shake well, and it seems like the prudent course of action for a market of this size, at least to this Redzoner.
    "I have just been more than a little suspect of all the trades since the Willy (Scott Williamson) cash grab. That one left such a bad taste in my mouth that even a 1985 Dom Pérignon couldn't cleanse it." -- Creek14

  10. #218
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Walt optimistic on Bailey extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Can anyone imagine Billy Beane losing a Bailey caliber pitcher for a sandwich pick?

    The notion of keeping Bailey for one more big season is great, but it leaves the Reds high and dry afterwards.

    The idea of losing Choo, Arroyo, Bailey, then maybe Latos, losing them all for nothing but some sandwich picks is not the way to handle a small market team.

    You either have to sign these guys within your budget relatively early or trade them for major value. Particularly under the new system where you only get a sandwich pick.

    If the ball club has budgetary issues they have to be more pro-active in getting good players who fit the budget, and trading players who don't fit the budget and won't sign.
    Is this a trick question?

    Nov '06: Billy Beane let's the face of the A's team, Cy Young winner Barry Zito, wak in FA for a supplemental 1st round pick. The pick netted them Sean Doolittle, their best current RP.

    Now, part of the reason he did that was:

    Dec '04: Tim Hudson was traded before his last year of arb for a mediocre haul -- Dan Meyer (bust), Kiko Calero (a few decent years) and Daric Barton (AAAA backup)

    Dec '04: Mark Mulder was traded before his last year of arb for a nice haul, most notably Dan Haren (who was turned in to an even better haul after 3 years). I wonder what GM was stupid enough to trade Dan Haren for 1 year of Mark Mulder?

    One of the trades produced excellent value. The other provided very little. It's a crapshoot. You speak with such certainty and yet the paragon of small market guruness did exactly what you say is unimaginable.

    Does that make letting him walk in FA the smart move? Probably not. I'd certainly argue flipping him would be the right move.

    But at the same time, let's not kid ourselves; Walt knows how this works. He's got a lot more information than we do. I would it find it a curious move, but hardly indefensible, especially when we don't know what kind of offers Walt may have gotten (or more precisely, not gotten) on the trade market. Yeah, the Rays got Wil Myers for Shields. But notice what uniform David Price is wearing. There isn't always a good deal to be made.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  12. #219
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    Re: Walt optimistic on Bailey extension

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post

    But at the same time, let's not kid ourselves; Walt knows how this works. He's got a lot more information than we do. I would it find it a curious move, but hardly indefensible, especially when we don't know what kind of offers Walt may have gotten (or more precisely, not gotten) on the trade market. Yeah, the Rays got Wil Myers for Shields. But notice what uniform David Price is wearing. There isn't always a good deal to be made.

    Pay no mind to the fact that Tampa couldn't get what they wanted for Price in this market, as teams waited for Tanaka, and let this year's top available pitchers sit until February.

  13. #220
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    Re: Walt optimistic on Bailey extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Beane would tell you he has no alternative in his market.

    Reds don't have to emulate Beane precisely, move for move.

    But if the budget is a big issue they need to avoid simply letting players depart in exchange for sandwich draft picks. Sign them early or trade them for full value.

    The player has to be willing to sign early, as you are well aware, and the return has to be worth the player you are letting walk, again, as you are aware.

    I really believe that some fans are just frustrated by a lack of moves, and almost want just anything to happen, good, bad, or other. The only trade that happened at last year's July deadline was a minor move. There are quite a few talented players still sitting at home without a contract. The market changed after the last CBA, and some fans haven't adjusted yet. Teams value their draft picks more, and teams try to sign their younger talent earlier, keeping some talent away from free agency at earlier ages.

    There is little harm in just getting a draft pick if your top talent won't resign when you want them to. At least, if you believe in your ability to draft and develop, which the Reds track record would say they do.

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  15. #221
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    Re: Walt optimistic on Bailey extension

    Quote Originally Posted by PepperJack View Post
    The player has to be willing to sign early, as you are well aware, and the return has to be worth the player you are letting walk, again, as you are aware.

    I really believe that some fans are just frustrated by a lack of moves, and almost want just anything to happen, good, bad, or other. The only trade that happened at last year's July deadline was a minor move. There are quite a few talented players still sitting at home without a contract. The market changed after the last CBA, and some fans haven't adjusted yet. Teams value their draft picks more, and teams try to sign their younger talent earlier, keeping some talent away from free agency at earlier ages.

    There is little harm in just getting a draft pick if your top talent won't resign when you want them to. At least, if you believe in your ability to draft and develop, which the Reds track record would say they do.
    You draft and develop a jewel like Bailey who peaks in value as he gets to free agency.

    He is good enough to warrant around $100 million.

    You then let him go for a sandwich pick.

    We just disagree. I see harm in that.

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  17. #222
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    Re: Walt optimistic on Bailey extension

    You then let him go for a sandwich pick.
    By all accounts they've tried to extend him last offseason and this one. Takes two to tango.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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  19. #223
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    Re: Walt optimistic on Bailey extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    You draft and develop a jewel like Bailey who peaks in value as he gets to free agency.

    He is good enough to warrant around $100 million.

    You then let him go for a sandwich pick.

    We just disagree. I see harm in that.


    If the Reds don't get a deal done with Bailey, I'm not going to think the Reds didn't try hard enough, I'm going to think Bailey wants to see what his top dollar will be.

    Teams lose top talent for little more than a comp pick all the time. Boston just let go of Ellsbury for nothing more than that this offseason, and are in the same boat as the Reds with Bailey in Lester this season, even though Lester said he would give them some type of discount. They have infinite more money than the Reds, and a FO that people trip over themselves to congratulate. Yet it's still a reality teams face.

    The Reds are a 100+ million payroll club now, not the 60-70 million they used to be, and they have shown a willingness to lock up their players that are open to the idea for the most part.


    All of this said, the Reds still haven't lost Bailey for a comp pick. Maybe they agree to a deal, or maybe Homer hits the market, and finds he might not get what he thought, and comes closer to the Reds range.

  20. #224
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Walt optimistic on Bailey extension

    If only there was a 200+ IP starter with a history of pitching well for the Reds that they could have signed as a replacement for Homer Bailey that would allow them to trade him for value.
    Championships Matter.
    24 Years and Counting...

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  22. #225
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    Re: Walt optimistic on Bailey extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    If only there was a 200+ IP starter with a history of pitching well for the Reds that they could have signed as a replacement for Homer Bailey that would allow them to trade him for value.

    The timing of this report from a "source" leads me to wonder, if it's nothing more than Homer's people trying to put pressure on the Reds side, right after Arroyo signs somewhere else.


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