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Thread: 2014 Plan.....Now....

  1. #46
    Member Lewdog's Avatar
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    Re: 2014 Plan.....Now....

    Quote Originally Posted by ac084c View Post
    That last statement is the philosophy of a 5th place team. Not a perennial contender. Which is the point that mth is trying to make.

    No it isn't, especially when it is only one position. What do you expect the Reds to do? Go out and over pay some worn down guy to play for a year? They can't go out and get a guy in his prime and leave Hamilton with no place to play. Take all the options and weigh them, giving Hamilton a shot is the most logical, cost effective, and has the most upside of any.

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  3. #47
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    Re: 2014 Plan.....Now....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    No it isn't, especially when it is only one position. What do you expect the Reds to do? Go out and over pay some worn down guy to play for a year? They can't go out and get a guy in his prime and leave Hamilton with no place to play. Take all the options and weigh them, giving Hamilton a shot is the most logical, cost effective, and has the most upside of any.
    That'd be true if there was only one position to worry about. But 3B, SS, C and to a lesser extent, LF and 2B should all be cause for concern.

    The only areas where there aren't big question marks or guys in full decline are RF and 1B.

  4. #48
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    Re: 2014 Plan.....Now....

    Quote Originally Posted by ac084c View Post
    That'd be true if there was only one position to worry about. But 3B, SS, C and to a lesser extent, LF and 2B should all be cause for concern.

    The only areas where there aren't big question marks or guys in full decline are RF and 1B.
    Everyone is ready to give up on Frazier, Cozart, and Mesoraco...I just don't get it. LF? We all know that the Reds are going to man it like last year until one of the young guys in the minors are ready, a platoon of vets and guys who are only good against righties or lefties. We all know Phillips will be playing 2B next year, and he will be the same old Phillips making highlights and flipping his bat.

  5. #49
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    Re: 2014 Plan.....Now....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Everyone is ready to give up on Frazier, Cozart, and Mesoraco...I just don't get it. LF? We all know that the Reds are going to man it like last year until one of the young guys in the minors are ready, a platoon of vets and guys who are only good against righties or lefties. We all know Phillips will be playing 2B next year, and he will be the same old Phillips making highlights and flipping his bat.

    Phillips wasn't the same old Phillips in 2013. He's declining, and declining pretty hard.

  6. #50
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    Re: 2014 Plan.....Now....

    Quote Originally Posted by ac084c View Post
    Phillips wasn't the same old Phillips in 2013. He's declining, and declining pretty hard.

    If a guy sits out because he has nagging injuries he is a wussy, if he plays hurt and his numbers aren't up to his normal healthy ones, he is in decline. The guy can't win!

  7. #51
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    Re: 2014 Plan.....Now....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    If a guy sits out because he has nagging injuries he is a wussy, if he plays hurt and his numbers aren't up to his normal healthy ones, he is in decline. The guy can't win!
    I don't think he's the player he was 5 years ago, but people think Phillips is in some sort of free fall. Easy to forget he was having an excellent 2013 until his hbp injury.

    People are seriously under projecting Phillips, Ludwick, Mesoraco, and Hamilton.

  8. #52
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: 2014 Plan.....Now....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    If a guy sits out because he has nagging injuries he is a wussy, if he plays hurt and his numbers aren't up to his normal healthy ones, he is in decline. The guy can't win!
    Phillips will be 33. His prime seasons are behind him. He's been in decline for 3 years running. I'm sure nagging injuries have something to do with it. As he ages the nagging injuries are just going to happen more often and last longer when they do. The theory is that last year he was hit by a pitch that he just never got over. Assuming that's the whole story (which I don't buy) , I wonder if the Phillips of 5 years ago would have got over it.

    In 2014 it will be something else. Age does that.

    BTW, handing a prospect that isn't ready and hasn't won the job with success at the previous level is exactly what rebuilding teams do. Contending teams find production. If Hamilton steps up, having two talented guys never cost a team a championship. Much prefer that problem to the likelihood of having no one adequate to play.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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  10. #53
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    Re: 2014 Plan.....Now....

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Phillips will be 33. His prime seasons are behind him. He's been in decline for 3 years running. I'm sure nagging injuries have something to do with it. As he ages the nagging injuries are just going to happen more often and last longer when they do. The theory is that last year he was hit by a pitch that he just never got over. Assuming that's the whole story (which I don't buy) , I wonder if the Phillips of 5 years ago would have got over it.

    In 2014 it will be something else. Age does that.

    BTW, handing a prospect that isn't ready and hasn't won the job with success at the previous level is exactly what rebuilding teams do. Contending teams find production. If Hamilton steps up, having two talented guys never cost a team a championship. Much prefer that problem to the likelihood of having no one adequate to play.
    I've seen contending teams have young players come out of no where and be a productive part of the team all the time. Getting production out of unexpected players is often what makes contending teams the top teams in the league.

    By the way, though I'm defending the Reds players, but if you knew me from other boards, like the Bengals boards, you would know I'm not anywhere close to being a 'homer.' I shoot straight from the hip with my opinions.

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    Re: 2014 Plan.....Now....

    I know I'm in the heavy minority but I really like what we've done this offseason. I think this team could go either way on being a top NL team or middling all season. This gives Walt the chance to see how the season goes before deciding to mortgage the future to win this year or try and sell some of the older guys/expiring contracts off and do a quick on-the-fly rebuild for next year. My guess on this year is that we're fighting for the Wild Card. But there's nothing wrong with that. You guys hate when anyone brings the Cardinals up, but they proved in 2011 and 2012 that being a wild card is just fine. If we get in the tournament, it'll probably mean we added some pieces towards the end. In that case, I like our chances with our pitching against any team.

  12. #55
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    Re: 2014 Plan.....Now....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    I've seen contending teams have young players come out of no where and be a productive part of the team all the time. Getting production out of unexpected players is often what makes contending teams the top teams in the league.

    By the way, though I'm defending the Reds players, but if you knew me from other boards, like the Bengals boards, you would know I'm not anywhere close to being a 'homer.' I shoot straight from the hip with my opinions.
    Baseball is great that way. Unexpected guys come out of nowhere and change the landscape. The problem is that the Reds are handing the kid CF an the lead-off job. That isn't some surprise coming along and wowing us. That is taking a kid who struggled against inferior competition and counting on him to be an impact guy in the majors.

    Had the Reds acquired a stop gap while Hamilton took another shot at AAA and then came-up as a game changer, that would fit the story you're selling.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  13. #56
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: 2014 Plan.....Now....

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsAndCatsFan View Post
    I know I'm in the heavy minority but I really like what we've done this offseason. I think this team could go either way on being a top NL team or middling all season. This gives Walt the chance to see how the season goes before deciding to mortgage the future to win this year or try and sell some of the older guys/expiring contracts off and do a quick on-the-fly rebuild for next year. My guess on this year is that we're fighting for the Wild Card. But there's nothing wrong with that. You guys hate when anyone brings the Cardinals up, but they proved in 2011 and 2012 that being a wild card is just fine. If we get in the tournament, it'll probably mean we added some pieces towards the end. In that case, I like our chances with our pitching against any team.
    Welcome to the board, but nobody is suggesting that anyone mortgage the future. In fact, throwing Hamilton to the wolves before he's ready may be more risky for the future than anything I'm suggesting.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  14. #57
    Member Lewdog's Avatar
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    Re: 2014 Plan.....Now....

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Baseball is great that way. Unexpected guys come out of nowhere and change the landscape. The problem is that the Reds are handing the kid CF an the lead-off job. That isn't some surprise coming along and wowing us. That is taking a kid who struggled against inferior competition and counting on him to be an impact guy in the majors.

    Had the Reds acquired a stop gap while Hamilton took another shot at AAA and then came-up as a game changer, that would fit the story you're selling.
    I'm going to give you the stats and you name the player, these stats are all in the same year.

    Single A 17 HR 84 RBI .324 Avg .389 OBP
    Single A+ 2 HR 10 RBI .284 Avg .341 OBP
    Triple A 0 HR 2 RBI .214 Avg .267 OBP

    I'll give you a hint, he is a first ballot Hall of Famer. By looking at those stats, and those are all of his minor league stats, do you think he deserved to start in the majors the next year?

  15. #58
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    Re: 2014 Plan.....Now....

    Do you guys give up?

  16. #59
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    Re: 2014 Plan.....Now....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    I'm going to give you the stats and you name the player, these stats are all in the same year.

    Single A 17 HR 84 RBI .324 Avg .389 OBP
    Single A+ 2 HR 10 RBI .284 Avg .341 OBP
    Triple A 0 HR 2 RBI .214 Avg .267 OBP

    I'll give you a hint, he is a first ballot Hall of Famer. By looking at those stats, and those are all of his minor league stats, do you think he deserved to start in the majors the next year?
    I need more context. How did he hit the spring before he made the jump to the majors. Did he get called up by a contending team? What position did he play?

    It's somewhat rhetorical given that this is most likely an isolated occurrence anyway. By and large guys aren't called up if they don't excel in the minors, unless they're playing for teams that aren't contending.

  17. #60
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: 2014 Plan.....Now....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    I'm going to give you the stats and you name the player, these stats are all in the same year.

    Single A 17 HR 84 RBI .324 Avg .389 OBP
    Single A+ 2 HR 10 RBI .284 Avg .341 OBP
    Triple A 0 HR 2 RBI .214 Avg .267 OBP

    I'll give you a hint, he is a first ballot Hall of Famer. By looking at those stats, and those are all of his minor league stats, do you think he deserved to start in the majors the next year?
    No
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS


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