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Thread: Votto on WLW now

  1. #46
    Member tomnuetten's Avatar
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    Re: Votto on WLW now

    itīs just great to hear him talk! heīs wellspoken and has a great approach on his work and himself.

    And he doesnīt search every journalist to talk about himself which leads to few interviews that are very interesting.

    Iīm very interested in sabermetrics and Iīm trying to understand more of the game (I never played the game, in germany you wonīt find any teams... only in big cities or military bases from the us). The problem I have is that I sometimes donīt understand it because of language problems (my english isnīt that good).

    Iīm reading at the moment the hardball times baseball annual 2014 => pretty good read so far

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  4. #47
    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
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    Re: Votto on WLW now

    Quote Originally Posted by tomnuetten View Post
    itīs just great to hear him talk! heīs wellspoken and has a great approach on his work and himself.

    And he doesnīt search every journalist to talk about himself which leads to few interviews that are very interesting.

    Iīm very interested in sabermetrics and Iīm trying to understand more of the game (I never played the game, in germany you wonīt find any teams... only in big cities or military bases from the us). The problem I have is that I sometimes donīt understand it because of language problems (my english isnīt that good).

    Iīm reading at the moment the hardball times baseball annual 2014 => pretty good read so far
    Keep interacting with Redszoners, that may help your english improve.

  5. #48
    Burn It Jamz's Avatar
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    Re: Votto on WLW now

    Man...Votto is just amazing. Great personality, intelligent and one of the best players in the league.

    Quote Originally Posted by RadfordVA View Post
    While it is cool he knows about wRc+. I am fairly certain that if Brandon Phillips was among the league leaders in that and UZR instead of the traditional accolades like RBi and gold gloves he would be touting those stats as well. As Votto said players are going to look for things to arm themselves with. It would make no sense for a player to like a stat that they are weak in.

    Players and people in general tend to like the stats that put them in the best light. With all that being said we are fortunate that Votto is best at wrc+ and it is his favorite
    Put a player that is the best at wRC+ in a decent line-up and they will put up the best counting stats generally speaking.
    I see great things in baseball. It's our game.

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  7. #49
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Votto on WLW now

    Votto is a very cerebral guy. Its fun to compare and contrast his approach to a guy like Manny Ramirez's. One guy is more studious and one guy is "see the ball, hit the ball." What interest me, or concerns me, or is a good topic for discussion, is last season was really the first time you heard Votto talk using more advanced metrics in his hitting approach. That also coincided with his lowest SLG in a number of years. Was that a coincidence? Was it another factor? Was it a number of factors? If Votto continues his more analytical approach at the plate and puts up another sub-Votto SLG year, is there an issue?

  8. #50
    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Re: Votto on WLW now

    You have a false premise, being that last year was the first time he approached his hitting analytically.

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  10. #51
    Member wlf WV's Avatar
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    Re: Votto on WLW now

    The depth of sabermetrics is daunting to anyone,and ever changing. There is no need for the general fan to be criticized ,it's kinda bragging or bullying. I am thankful for the knowledge shared here by patient and considerate sabermetricians. I am also glad we have Votto on the Reds.

    Most people will always trust their eyes first,right or wrong.
    May the Lord bless

  11. #52
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    Re: Votto on WLW now

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I do find it interesting that Lance has only had callers/questions that more or less take the sabermetric position. Maybe that's his editorial choice. Maybe that's a bit of selection bias based on his audience given his obvious predilections. But I do very much wonder just what the landscape of fan opinion actually looks like.
    What I know is that last year I went to several games were folks around me booed Joey Votto for talking a walk.

    No Lie.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

  12. #53
    SERP Emeritus paintmered's Avatar
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    Re: Votto on WLW now

    Votto should rake at the plate. Walking is not raking.

    I think this is the most fundamentally simple reason why a subset of the fanbase has reacted negatively towards Votto.

    I reject their view, but the arguments and frustration boil down to those two sentences.
    Last edited by paintmered; 02-05-2014 at 10:40 AM.
    What if this wasn't a rhetorical question?

    All models are wrong. Some of them are useful.

  13. #54
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Votto on WLW now

    Quote Originally Posted by dfs View Post
    What I know is that last year I went to several games were folks around me booed Joey Votto for talking a walk.

    No Lie.

    Those people probally think the Reds won't score as many points getting walks.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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  15. #55
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Votto on WLW now

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    Those people probally think the Reds won't score as many points getting walks.
    I see what you did there, but it still hurt my feelings to read it.

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  17. #56
    Member tomnuetten's Avatar
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    Re: Votto on WLW now

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Votto is a very cerebral guy. Its fun to compare and contrast his approach to a guy like Manny Ramirez's. One guy is more studious and one guy is "see the ball, hit the ball." What interest me, or concerns me, or is a good topic for discussion, is last season was really the first time you heard Votto talk using more advanced metrics in his hitting approach. That also coincided with his lowest SLG in a number of years. Was that a coincidence? Was it another factor? Was it a number of factors? If Votto continues his more analytical approach at the plate and puts up another sub-Votto SLG year, is there an issue?
    I think the reason that we heard votto talk about advanced metrics the first time (I donīt know if he didnīt talk about it earlier) is that he earned criticism and questions about his approach.

    therefore he told everyone how he approaches the at bats etc. So the advanced metrics arenīt the reason his slg went down, the decreasing slg was the reason he "had" to talk about his approach more than he used to...

    I still think that his knee played a big role on his power and weīll see a higher slg from him this year. Canīt understand that some fans donīt appreciate that one of the best hitters wears a reds uniform at the moment.. Hard to read the comments at the official reds page

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  19. #57
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: Votto on WLW now

    Quote Originally Posted by tomnuetten View Post
    I think the reason that we heard votto talk about advanced metrics the first time (I donīt know if he didnīt talk about it earlier) is that he earned criticism and questions about his approach.

    therefore he told everyone how he approaches the at bats etc. So the advanced metrics arenīt the reason his slg went down, the decreasing slg was the reason he "had" to talk about his approach more than he used to...

    I still think that his knee played a big role on his power and weīll see a higher slg from him this year. Canīt understand that some fans donīt appreciate that one of the best hitters wears a reds uniform at the moment.. Hard to read the comments at the official reds page
    Perfect summation.

    In the earlier interview, he also alluded to the drop in slugging, and what he thinks caused it.

    He had no clear answer. He said it could have been the knee, but is leaning more towards randomness being the culprit.

    I can't remember who it was, but in one of the Votto threads a poster laid out a great case for this very thing. I wonder if Joey was reading that thread.

  20. #58
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Votto on WLW now

    Quote Originally Posted by tomnuetten View Post
    I think the reason that we heard votto talk about advanced metrics the first time (I donīt know if he didnīt talk about it earlier) is that he earned criticism and questions about his approach.

    therefore he told everyone how he approaches the at bats etc. So the advanced metrics arenīt the reason his slg went down, the decreasing slg was the reason he "had" to talk about his approach more than he used to...

    I still think that his knee played a big role on his power and weīll see a higher slg from him this year. Canīt understand that some fans donīt appreciate that one of the best hitters wears a reds uniform at the moment.. Hard to read the comments at the official reds page
    IIRC at the beginning of the season Buster Olney did a piece on Votto's approach to hitting. It seemed to me that he was more vocal about his hitting approach at the beginning of last season than I have ever heard him. Granted Votto had never really been a vocal person to the media.

    In looking at this BR page last seasons numbers something stuck me. He set his all time high for walks in a season at 135. But at the same time his IBB was pretty much the same as it was the prior year in 50 more games. I wonder if pitchers used his approach against him. Knowing they could nibble, knowing that putting Votto on base and facing BP was a better option. They also could nibble and hope that they could get Votto out that way.

    For me it isn't about "booing" Votto or wanting him to swing the bat just for the sake of it. Its about asking the question what happened to the guy who hit 37 HR's in a season? What happened to the guy who was on pace to mash the single season 2B record? Although he did tie a career high in 3B's, maybe he was trying to become as speed player! If he never fully trusted his knee last year that is fair. Votto has spoiled us to the point that his down years are boarder line MVP type years. But as a fan, I want more of those 2010 and 2012 seasons.

  21. #59
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Votto on WLW now

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels View Post
    Perfect summation.

    In the earlier interview, he also alluded to the drop in slugging, and what he thinks caused it.

    He had no clear answer. He said it could have been the knee, but is leaning more towards randomness being the culprit.

    I can't remember who it was, but in one of the Votto threads a poster laid out a great case for this very thing. I wonder if Joey was reading that thread.
    I think there's also something to be said for the way athletes have to think in order to be successful. Anybody who has a tendency to make "excuses" is probably selected out of being a professional athlete -- either by themselves or by coaches.

    While is seems like a person should be able to honestly assess the degree to which outside factors affected their success, what matters much more from a success standpoint is the to be self-critical and driven to improve. The penalty for wrongly thinking something was within your control when it wasn't is that you spend time/energy in a futile attempt to improve. Ultimately, no harm done, really*. Eventually, the external factors will even out and you'll improve. But if you wrongly think something was the result of an external factor when really it was your fault, the penalty is that you will fail to improve and continue to fail.

    *Some athletes take this to the extreme and accept blame for everything. This could result in them wasting time & energy on the wrong things, trying to fix problems that don't exist while ignoring supposedly smaller ones that are actually within their control.

    Votto, on the other hand, seems like the rare player that can approach this blame dynamic analytically, assessing what is/isn't within his control and focusing his efforts accordingly. Usually coaches are playing this role, serving as the filter for the player. But with Votto, he's on it; he's thought about it more deeply than almost anybody else. And he doesn't seem to mind being honest with people when he thinks he's done his best. And I think that makes people uncomfortable, because we're so accustomed to athletes just keeping their heads down and taking the blame.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  22. #60
    Member tomnuetten's Avatar
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    Re: Votto on WLW now

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    In looking at this BR page last seasons numbers something stuck me. He set his all time high for walks in a season at 135. But at the same time his IBB was pretty much the same as it was the prior year in 50 more games. I wonder if pitchers used his approach against him. Knowing they could nibble, knowing that putting Votto on base and facing BP was a better option. They also could nibble and hope that they could get Votto out that way.
    thatīs in my opinion exact the thing that happend! not every "intentional" walk (pitching around the strike zone) is considered an IBB. Votto was in front of the count more often than he was the year before (where he was great already) => they wonīt throw him something down the middle in a 3-0/3-1 count with a struggling bp on deck

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    For me it isn't about "booing" Votto or wanting him to swing the bat just for the sake of it. Its about asking the question what happened to the guy who hit 37 HR's in a season? What happened to the guy who was on pace to mash the single season 2B record? Although he did tie a career high in 3B's, maybe he was trying to become as speed player! If he never fully trusted his knee last year that is fair. Votto has spoiled us to the point that his down years are boarder line MVP type years. But as a fan, I want more of those 2010 and 2012 seasons.
    He hit 37 HRīs because pitchers handled him differently, his knee was in better shape. I want of course more of those 2010 and 2012 seasons, but I want be to worried if he produces like in 2013 (with better defence and a little bit more power)

    what I worry is the fact that we have one of the best hitters there are, one of the best pitching rotations + bullpen but canīt pull it together (so far). obviously those players need more help from the rest (bench + fielders)

    one superstar, one star (bruce) and a bunch of avg. and below avg. players on offence is just not good enough ( I do believe that those who performed below or avg. can improve and therefore help to win it all)

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