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Thread: Reds Backup Shortstop Discussion

  1. #16
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    Re: Reds Backup Shortstop Discussion

    I am sympathetic to carrying an extra bat, but.....Hannahan has 24 ML innings at SS; Phillips has 19; Schumaker has 3 IP which is three more innings than he has at SS. Frazier and Hamilton were moved off SS in the minors. I think it is fair to say that they cannot play SS except, perhaps, in an emergency for one game. There are three questions that must be answered. First, would playing any of the above at SS for about 10 games during the season incur more damage than the offsetting benefit of having a better pinch hitter? Second, what is the backup plan in the event that Cozart is out for a few weeks. Is there a defensively ML capable SS willing to take a AAA assignment and await a call that might not come? Third, if the Reds had to get a SS during the season on short notice from another organization, what would be the Reds bargaining position and what would be the cost in prospects?

    The answer I get is Santiago at SS on the 25. I don't like it, but it seems like the prudent course. The only possible out I see is Hamilton. I understand that he lacked polish at SS, but it is not clear to me that moving him to CF was more a case of preferring Cozart over Stubbs. I'd want to see what he had this spring before deciding between Santiago and Bernadino. If Hamilton would work, then try to work a deal with Santiago to stay at AAA.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Reds Backup Shortstop Discussion

    As Izturis proved last year, a dedicated backup SS is a terrible waste of a roster spot. Have one backup IF with the best bat you can find and don't worry about the glove stuff so much. The Reds have the best defensive IF in baseball, the team can afford to play one guy who has just enough glove to get by on an occasional basis.
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  4. #18
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    Re: Reds Backup Shortstop Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    The point of keeping Hannahan is that he is signed to a guaranteed contract for 2014 with a buyout in 2015.
    His 2014 salary is only like $1 million (i.e. barely twice the minimum) and the $2 million buyout is a sunk cost. It's not prohibitively expensive to replace him if they want to.

    I'm not saying the backup MI has to be a defensive wizard, but if the team doesn't have anyone they trust to play there in important situations or they have to start moving regulars around to cover for Cozart if he has to miss a few days, that can be a problem. One that can have as much or more of an impact on the team as the delta between this guy or that guy at the #4 pinch-hitting spot, is what I'm saying.
    Last edited by IslandRed; 02-07-2014 at 06:11 PM.
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  5. #19
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    Re: Reds Backup Shortstop Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    As Izturis proved last year, a dedicated backup SS is a terrible waste of a roster spot. Have one backup IF with the best bat you can find and don't worry about the glove stuff so much. The Reds have the best defensive IF in baseball, the team can afford to play one guy who has just enough glove to get by on an occasional basis.
    Jeff Keppinger circa 2007 would be a great fit for this team. They need to go find that player again.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

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  7. #20
    malingered here too long malcontent's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Backup Shortstop Discussion

    Schumaker is more 2B than OF.

    If Hannahan gets cut/moved, why not go with Bernadina?

    Santiago can back up 3B, assuming he makes the club.

    I'm hoping Rogearvin Argelo forces the issue with a hot spring.
    Everything is perfect, but there is a lot of room for improvement. --- Shunryu Suzuki-roshi

  8. #21
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    Re: Reds Backup Shortstop Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    His 2014 salary is only like $1 million (i.e. barely twice the minimum) and the $2 million buyout is a sunk cost. It's not prohibitively expensive to replace him if they want to.

    I'm not saying the backup MI has to be a defensive wizard, but if the team doesn't have anyone they trust to play there in important situations or they have to start moving regulars around to cover for Cozart if he has to miss a few days, that can be a problem. One that can have as much or more of an impact on the team as the delta between this guy or that guy at the #4 pinch-hitting spot, is what I'm saying.
    I was waiting for the sunk cost argument but it doesn't apply here.

    The Reds have $3 million guaranteed to Hannahan in salary and buy out.

    The Reds can have Jack play to earn that money. Or they can just pay him and let him walk.

    Why on earth would the Reds pay Hannahan $3 million to NOT play? And then, on top of it, also pay somebody else to cover his role or a similar role.

    This a team that is apparently dealing with a tight budget.

    Not happening. Non-starter.
    Last edited by Kc61; 02-07-2014 at 06:34 PM.

  9. #22
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    Re: Reds Backup Shortstop Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Why on earth would the Reds pay Hannahan $3 million to NOT play? And then, on top of it, also pay somebody else to cover his role or a similar role.
    Because somebody else might be a lot better and they're ostensibly trying to win.
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  10. #23
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    Re: Reds Backup Shortstop Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Because somebody else might be a lot better and they're ostensibly trying to win.
    But any player who is "a lot better" is going to cost "a lot more."

    So this Reds team is going to pay off Hannahan at $3 million. Let him walk. Then pay a better player, what, a total of $4 million including HIS buyout?

    This new guy isn't working for less.

    So now the Reds have devoted $7 million to this bench spot.

    Maybe the Yankees might do this. The Reds? No way.

  11. #24
    malingered here too long malcontent's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Backup Shortstop Discussion

    Didn't Hannahan inexplicably have multiple suitors last winter?

    Find them. Tell them he's unparalleled in the clubhouse and took over leadership duties when Rolen wasn't re-signed.

    He taught last year's team how to play the game the right way.
    Last edited by malcontent; 02-07-2014 at 06:49 PM.
    Everything is perfect, but there is a lot of room for improvement. --- Shunryu Suzuki-roshi

  12. #25
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    Re: Reds Backup Shortstop Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    But any player who is "a lot better" is going to cost "a lot more."

    So this Reds team is going to pay off Hannahan at $3 million. Let him walk. Then pay a better player, what, a total of $4 million including HIS buyout?

    This new guy isn't working for less.

    So now the Reds have devoted $7 million to this bench spot.

    Maybe the Yankees might do this. The Reds? No way.
    I don't think that's true at all. Hannahan is terrible. Sign a failed prospect to a minor league deal. Or a ST invite. Like the aforementioned Keppinger, that's how they got him. It's not hard to find players that are essentially free that are better than Jack Hannahan.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

  13. #26
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    Re: Reds Backup Shortstop Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    Jeff Keppinger circa 2007 would be a great fit for this team. They need to go find that player again.
    My pick was Josh Rodriguez until he was signed by the Marlins. He OB'ed at ever level in the minors.

    You don't need all-glove guys when your starting eight can all catch the ball really well. Add bats who won't throw the ball into the stands.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

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  15. #27
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    Re: Reds Backup Shortstop Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    I don't think that's true at all. Hannahan is terrible. Sign a failed prospect to a minor league deal. Or a ST invite. Like the aforementioned Keppinger, that's how they got him. It's not hard to find players that are essentially free that are better than Jack Hannahan.
    Sorry, they got him in a trade from KC. They traded "Russ Haltiwanger" for him. Has anyone ever heard of that guy? That's another avenue. If we don't have good AAA depth for a backup SS, trade our AAA depth for someone else's.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

  16. #28
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    Re: Reds Backup Shortstop Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    But any player who is "a lot better" is going to cost "a lot more."
    Not necessarily. Chris Nelson in 2012 was a lot better than Hannahan 2013. Frankly, if Hannahan can't play better than last season, you pay him to go away. Finding better than a .600 OPS isn't all that high a bar to clear. It can be done on the cheap and what the Reds really can't afford is obsessing over the wages of a bench player who can't get the job done.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  17. #29
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    Re: Reds Backup Shortstop Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    Sorry, they got him in a trade from KC. They traded "Russ Haltiwanger" for him. Has anyone ever heard of that guy? That's another avenue. If we don't have good AAA depth for a backup SS, trade our AAA depth for someone else's.

    My guy was Ivan De Jesus JR.

    He's hit .306/360/425 in AAA, and has never really been given a big league shot.

  18. #30
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    Re: Reds Backup Shortstop Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by PepperJack View Post
    My guy was Ivan De Jesus JR.

    He's hit .306/360/425 in AAA, and has never really been given a big league shot.
    There you go. Former decently regarded prospect. Good minor league numbers at a position of need. He was signed to a minor league deal back in December by the Orioles, so he was pretty much freely available.

    That's one of the stupid mistakes this team keeps making. Stop wasting money on Hannahans or Renterias or whatever if you're so cash strapped. Sign more DeJesuses and let them fight it out in Spring Training.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

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