Is it time for a new team doctor?

[Rojo]

I'm not advocating ripping anyone. But honestly, if you can't see the difference between not having all of the facts to assess a medical evaluation (you know, federally protected patient information that you will never know) and evaluating baseball moves where there is a plethora of information available at any given time, there isn't much left to say.

And just to be clear, Kremchek acknowledged that he underestimated Griffey's injury. I'm fairy certain you've made a mistake in your job at least once or twice.

Another post saying that while Kremchck isn't above criticism, he's above criticism.

[Hoosier Red]

But I could use the same argument vs Dusty.
We never found out why Dusty was batting Stubbs leadoff. No one ever really cared enough to ask him in a polite way (at least not that I remember). When Dusty did try to explain things, often his quotes were pulled out of context to mock him. The best example is the "base clogger" quote.. Dusty said <paraphrased> "OBP is good, but you got to drive the runs in too, or else you are just clogging the bases" Most quotes left off the part where he said OBP is good.
My guess is that Dusty was hoping that Stubbs would eventually get comfortable in the leadoff spot. I also think that Dusty has different criteria for who hits leadoff. ... Like perhaps Dusty feels he is maximizing his chances of scoring at least one run vs the traditional stat strategy of trying to get two guys on base and hoping for the 3 run homer. That's vastly simplified, but the point is.. We don't have enough info to call Dusty an idiot either. We might think we do, but we don't.By your last paragraph
Well, if we have to wait until then, we might as well just close down the message board because us fans will never have enough information to fairly criticize anyone to everyone's standards.

If you're arguing that perhaps we should call people idiots for disagreeing with our views, I'll agree with you. If your argument is "Well people called Dusty an idiot, so there's no reason I shouldn't call Dr. Kremchek a quack" I'll disagree with the lesson to take from that.

To me, we have enough info to criticize how the Reds handled Jr's leg injuries, and Doc definitely takes some of the blame for that.
People can go on and on, and claim that since we didn't hear every conversation about Jr, maybe Doc is innocent, but sorry.. he was the team doctor that ultimately cleared Jr. If he compromised his evaluation based on what Lindner wanted, that's even worse than making a mistake. If he made a mistake, well, that mistake still screwed the team and Jr, so he needs to be held accountable. Either way, he takes some of the blame.

The idea that he only cleared Jr. to play as a ploy from Carl Lindner has only been suggested by you, and is completely baseless. That it was a mistaken diagnosis has not really been proven. And that hamstring injuries from one year led to a shoulder separation in a following year and a patella tendon injury the following year is ridiculous before you even get to tracing it to having to "play while injured."

We can look at patterns since Doc became the team doctor. Seems like his surgeries go well (no one is questioning that), but we can certainly in hindsight question his decisions based on what happens afterwards. Again, he wanted the spotlight. This is part of the spotlight, taking the heat along with taking the glory &
hanging with Marty.

I won't disagree that the higher celebrity leads to greater scrutiny. But based on the merits, the argument just doesn't match the facts in my opinion.

[GAC]

I just wonder how come no one other than Kremcheck has this protection on the message board.
People call players, managers, front office people, etc idiots/stupid/etc .... Why is Kremcheck such a sacred cow?

It's strictly my subjective opinion, but myself, and a vast majority who are "defending" Kremchek, don't see him as some sacred cow that can't be criticized. I certainly would agree that he seems to relish that "celebrity" status and it probably does fuel his ego. So if people want to laugh at/criticize him for that - more power to them.

Calling for Kremenchek to be fired just because he's annoying is ok on a sports message board.
Heck, even questioning his competency is.

It may be OK, and people, on a message board, certainly have a right to do so .... but it just makes them look somewhat silly IMO due to their lack of qualifications/background in medical science. So they shouldn't get so upset, or be offended, when people disagree with them or call them out on it.

It's just funny how many people are offended when the annual "fire Kremenchek" thread comes up every year.
Dusty, Walt, and the players get it a lot worse. Just because Doc has a fancy degree doesn't give him any special protection.
I'm sure if Dusty had a PhD in baseball (if that existed), he wouldn't have been treated any different.. it's the same thing.
Heck, Walt has one of the best careers of all active GMs, and he gets dissed all the time here.

I think woy answers that best....

The fallacy is that fans have medical knowledge to make a decision on whether he's done a "good" or "bad" job.

I sat through a meeting yesterday on Quality Care Management, which involves the grading of brick and mortar health care facilities and doctors. The scores that each entity receives are used in rating the level of care as disseminated to the public as well as used in the pricing model for the health plans rates. There are federal and state agencies and boards and customer and co-worker data used to just get a rating.

I don't see the data for these ratings, but they use over 200 pieces of data to come to a conclusion. Therefore the way I see it is I don't have enough information to make the judgement whether he's a "good" team doctor or a "bad" team doctor. Now that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on that subject, but I also can't claim to have most of the information like I can when talking about baseball. It's apples and hamburgers IMO.

But to take woy's "apples and hamburgers" thing a bit further, there is a huge difference.......

As fans, we don't need a college education or specialized degree to understand the game of baseball. Sure, a formal educational background is needed when it comes to the business aspect of the game (operating a franchise) as far as being an owner/GM; but I'm referring to possessing an understanding, having (gaining) knowledge on how the game is played, what it takes to succeed, what fails, on that playing field. And as fans, a vast majority of our positive/negative critiques - whether it's criticizing a manager's decisions, or a player's performance, etc - is based on an appreciative knowledge of statistical analysis that is readily available and understandable to all. No, it's not perfect knowledge, but it is a respected/valued knowledge. We can then present a valued "argument" to back up our position. For instance - the criticism of Baker batting Cozart in the #2 spot. It's based on some pretty sound statistical evidence that a vast majority wouldn't/couldn't argue with (mainly OB%). Ad we can (and do) do the same when it comes to critiquing a player's performance good or bad. It doesn't mean we're always going to be right, that others aren't going to disagree, which invokes some pretty intense discussions (threads) on here.... but we're able to do so, and even back up or refute arguments based on available knowledge (facts/present the numbers). We've got some sort of "footing" to stand on.

So the difference is... while we, as fans, may be "qualified" to a certain degree in the above ... we are not qualified ....unless, of course one is a physician/surgeon with an educational background in medical science (sports medicine) .... to be criticizing Kremchek's medical qualifications. Now that doesn't mean one can't criticize. Fire away. And I can understand some fans wanting to raise questions when it comes to certain players, whether it's a situation with Jr, Kearns etc. I just don't think they have all the facts, and especially medical facts. Pretty subjective IMO.

And most importantly.... their criticism is very "selective" while ignoring an overall, valued assessment of his qualifications/performance. If he was as bad as some suggest then he wouldn't be any team's physician/surgeon.

And that doesn't mean that doctors, including Kremchek, haven't made mistakes, even misdiagnoses. No physician is perfect. That's why medical malpractice insurance exists (LOL).

I guess what we need to do is develop some sort of analytical stat... like OPS .... that measures a team doctor's overall performance (success rate). Then we'll know for sure! LOL

[Carin4Narron]

Doc Hollywood was on ESPN Radio and said Votto won't miss much time at all and his knee looks excellent. But he is missing his 4th game in a row tonight. I tell you I feel with everything in my being there is something fundamentally wrong with how the Reds deal with injuries.

[Raisor]

Doc Hollywood was on ESPN Radio and said Votto won't miss much time at all and his knee looks excellent. But he is missing his 4th game in a row tonight. I tell you I feel with everything in my being there is something fundamentally wrong with how the Reds deal with injuries.

Do you follow any other clubs enough to know if the Reds handle things better/worse?

[westofyou]

To successfully anaylze a problem you need data, data does not equal hearing a doctor on AM radio for 4 minutes every now and then

[Kingspoint]

Too far removed from Cincinnati to make that call.

[RedTeamGo!]

I'm not a tinfoil cap guy but if Votto sits on the bench for another 4-5 days and is then placed on the dl this place is going to explode. Chuckie is going to be coming in full throttle with guns blazing.

[Carin4Narron]

Do you follow any other clubs enough to know if the Reds handle things better/worse?

can you name another team doctor who holds court with the press as much as he does? I can't! I am sorry but he makes a total fool out of himself by being wrong most of the time.

[Carin4Narron]

I'm not a tinfoil cap guy but if Votto sits on the bench for another 4-5 days and is then placed on the dl this place is going to explode. Chuckie is going to be coming in full throttle with guns blazing.

And well he should!

[kbrake]

And well he should!

Things change. If they anticipate Votto being 100% after a couple days of therapy and rest then it makes sense to not DL him. If that turns out to not be the case and the quad isn't responding as they had hoped then they might decide to DL him. That wouldn't be because someone is incompetent that would be because sometimes things change.

[Hoosier Red]

"Most of the time?"

Votto's a bit different case because the Reds likely feel as though it's worth it for the team to play short handed for 6-7 games if that means he's back on the field in 7 days instead of 15. I doubt there are many players they'd see as valuable enough to do that.

I don't think this is a particularly wise strategy, but I doubt the decision whether to DL or not DL is his call.
I'm betting he's back for the Cards series.

[Carin4Narron]

Things change. If they anticipate Votto being 100% after a couple days of therapy and rest then it makes sense to not DL him. If that turns out to not be the case and the quad isn't responding as they had hoped then they might decide to DL him. That wouldn't be because someone is incompetent that would be because sometimes things change.

That would be fine. Except Doc Hollywood said he won't miss much time at all! It has been 4 days! Either give a timetable or if you are unsure. Don't say anything at all. Just say something like we are trying to get Joey back soon. That's all i am saying. The way Doc Hollywood presents info is misleading!

[westofyou]

That would be fine. Except Doc Hollywood said he won't miss much time at all! It has been 4 days! Either give a timetable or if you are unsure. Don't say anything at all. Just say something like we are trying to get Joey back soon. That's all i am saying. The way Doc Hollywood presents info is misleading!

4 days equals 96 hours, is 96 hours a lot of time?

If you believe in every word you hear on the radio you're gonna be disappointed now and then

[Larkin Fan]

A patient may not have responded as fast as a doctor anticipated? Oh, the humanity! Recovery times are estimates. Read that again, estimates. They are not an exact science and they never will be. Reasonable people understand this.