Is it time for a new team doctor?

[Chuckie]

And that's different than what you've been doing how?

Yeah, posting things like "Kremchek allowed Griffey to pinch hit for a month when he could barely walk" is certainly me making up something. It never happened.

I admitted it's my opinion that the first Votto surgery was botched. But let's not pretend there aren't factual instances I could point to when Kremchek erred. For example: It's a fact Jim Edmonds called out the Reds' medical staff. You don't think I made that up too, do you?

[CySeymour]

Yeah, posting things like "Kremchek allowed Griffey to pinch hit for a month when he could barely walk" is certainly me making up something. It never happened.

I admitted it's my opinion that the first Votto surgery was botched. But let's not pretend there aren't factual instances I could point to when Kremchek erred. For example: It's a fact Jim Edmonds called out the Reds' medical staff. You don't think I made that up too, do you?

And you trying to argue that Votto's surgery was "botched" is what? Here's a hint: What is pulling something out of thin air?

[westofyou]

The Reds have played over 900 Games since Griffey was on the team.

[RedTeamGo!]

Jim Edmonds strikes me as the type to not admit he is aging and blame health issues on doctors.

Like my grandmother that calls all doctors "idiots that don't know what they are talking about."

[Always Red]

Jim Edmonds strikes me as the type to not admit he is aging and blame health issues on doctors.

Like my grandmother that calls all doctors "idiots that don't know what they are talking about."

More on Edmonds for a St. Louis source:

After sitting out the 2009 season, Edmonds signed with Milwaukee last spring and later was traded to Cincinnati.

After Edmonds agreed to go to Cincinnati in a late-season trade to help old friend and Reds general manager Walt Jocketty as the Reds were en route to the National League Central Division title, he said he did something he shouldn't have. Edmonds aggravated an already sore Achilles tendon when he was running out a home run on Sept. 21 and said he had taken "numerous" shots from the Reds' medical staff so he could play.

"The only thing I regret," Edmonds said, "is I should have shut it down last year when I was hurt. And if I would have stayed in Milwaukee, I would be fine right now.

"Really, it was a favor to (the Reds) and Walt. I kind of put myself at risk and allowed myself to be vulnerable (to further injury). It was the worst decision I made, but it is what it is."

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseb...2bfa5ac6c.html


No blaming of docs here, no botched surgery

Sounds like, in retrospect, Edmonds wishes he would have just shut it down. He didn't, in fact he complained that he wasn't in the lineup more during this time. He tried to play, looks like the Reds medical staff needled him so he could play, somehow.

He said this in February, 2011, before the interview in April of that year where he blamed the Reds medical staff for his problems.

[reds44]

Does Doc get no credit for having Bruce back less than 3 weeks from knee surgery?

[Caveat Emperor]

No matter what issue is brought up in regard to Kremchek, some people chalk it up as an isolated case.

Edmonds calling out the medical staff? Oh, that's just an old, disgruntled player on his last legs. What does he know?

Kremchek clearing Griffey to pinch hit for a month when he could barely walk? Nothing to see here.

Kremchek giving Ryan Madson a clean bill of health, right before he blows out his arm? Merely a coincidence. He didn't miss anything when he examined him.

Same deal for Gary Majewski. Clearly Dr. Timothy Kremchek didn't miss anything when he examined him after the trade. Those mean Nationals were lying to us! (MLB disagreed and dismissed the Reds' claim.)

Allowing Votto to play on the knee injury for three days before it was determined surgery was needed? Then needing to have another surgery a month later? Those darn sliding drills. Kremchek didn't do anything wrong. Meniscus surgery often leads to a player saying "I'll never be the same again because of the knee." That's very common for meniscus surgeries.

Kremchek going on the radio and giving fans false hope time and time again? Hey, he's got to live up to his nickname, right? Can't be Doc Hollywood and not give a certain amount of radio interviews per week.

No matter what he does, there's an excuse for it.

...or, maybe -- just maybe -- your sample data is skewed by the fact that you only include the information that:

A.) You are aware of
B.) Supports your point
C.) All of the above

[Brutus]

Does Doc get no credit for having Bruce back less than 3 weeks from knee surgery?

Should have only been two days. If not for the doctors, perhaps surgery wouldn't have been necessary at all.

[dougdirt]

Ha, it's a false claim because you say it is? OK. We'll agree to disagree that the first surgery was in fact botched.

Sigh.

His first surgery wasn't botched. If it was, the Reds wouldn't have had him out there doing rehab where media and other players could see. Do you really think that the Reds would have sent Joey Votto out there to work on rehabbing his knee, knowing full well that his knee wasn't right following surgery? Do you really think that everyone involved is truly that stupid and reckless? If so, what on Earth makes you think that way?

[Chuckie]

...or, maybe -- just maybe -- your sample data is skewed by the fact that you only include the information that:

A.) You are aware of
B.) Supports your point
C.) All of the above

I disagree my data is skewed, but as to the rest of your post, you outline a very-good way to debate a topic, IMO.
A. Go with what you know best.
B. Use evidence to support your point.
C. Do both of these.

[Chuckie]

The Reds have played over 900 Games since Griffey was on the team.

Just trying to give the overall picture. People act as if the Kremchek debate is just about Votto. Or just about (fill-in-the-topic). But there's been a long list of things that some Reds fans have been frustrated with when it comes to Kremchek. Obviously we're in the minority based on this thread. That's fine. I hope I'm wrong and that Kremchek is actually the best medical director in MLB. That would be a good thing for the Reds. But it's my opinion he's very bad.

[westofyou]

I disagree my data is skewed, but as to the rest of your post, you outline a very-good way to debate a topic, IMO.
A. Go with what you know best.
B. Use evidence to support your point.
C. Do both of these.

Your data is at best inadequate, limited and manufactured to support an agenda, an agenda that doesn't attempt to gain understanding of the situation and is more noise than discussion.

- - - Updated - - -

Just trying to give the overall picture. People act as if the Kremchek debate is just about Votto. Or just about (fill-in-the-topic). But there's been a long list of things that some Reds fans have been frustrated with when it comes to Kremchek. Obviously we're in the minority based on this thread. That's fine. I hope I'm wrong and that Kremchek is actually the best medical director in MLB. That would be a good thing for the Reds. But it's my opinion he's very bad.

He might be the worst.

We just don't have the data to determine that

[Chuckie]

Sigh.

His first surgery wasn't botched. If it was, the Reds wouldn't have had him out there doing rehab where media and other players could see. Do you really think that the Reds would have sent Joey Votto out there to work on rehabbing his knee, knowing full well that his knee wasn't right following surgery? Do you really think that everyone involved is truly that stupid and reckless? If so, what on Earth makes you think that way?

Douglas, I don't think they knew it was botched when they cleared Votto to go through sliding drills. Like with most meniscus surgeries, 2-3 weeks had passed and they probably said "Time to test it out." Jay Bruce is not the exception, he's the norm when it comes to meniscus surgeries. So, they probably thought enough time had passed since Votto's first surgery and tried the sliding drills. Then Joey realized something wasn't right. Maybe it was just the slide. Maybe the first surgery was botched. I would love if there were a way to find out. I'd put my money where my mouth is. And I'm admitting it's just my opinion that the first Votto surgery was botched. But some of the other stuff (Griffey, Edmonds, etc) is fact, not opinion.

[Chuckie]

He might be the worst.

We just don't have the data to determine that

Fair enough. I really am trying to see both sides here. Kremchek has clearly rubbed me the wrong way for years and I think there is hard evidence that supports the idea that he's not a good medical director. But I am interested in hearing both sides. I honestly don't have an "agenda" other than giving my honest opinion to fellow Reds fans. I know nothing I say on here is going to cause the Reds to find a new medical director. Just trying to have some discussion about this topic.

And I meant to ask you, earlier in this thread, why did you blow off the fact that Kremchek got such a low rating on the "Rate Your Doctor" site? You made fun of it by calling it "Yelp for doctors." Doesn't Yelp do a pretty good job of giving ratings for restaurants and the like? I just didn't get that dig.

[westofyou]

Fair enough. I really am trying to see both sides here. Kremchek has clearly rubbed me the wrong way for years and I think there is hard evidence that supports the idea that he's not a good medical director. But I am interested in hearing both sides. I honestly don't have an "agenda" other than giving my honest opinion to fellow Reds fans. I know nothing I say on here is going to cause the Reds to find a new medical director. Just trying to have some discussion about this topic.

And I meant to ask you, earlier in this thread, why did you blow off the fact that Kremchek got such a low rating on the "Rate Your Doctor" site? You made fun of it by calling it "Yelp for doctors." Doesn't Yelp do a pretty good job of giving ratings for restaurants and the like? I just didn't get that dig.

Yelp is hit or miss and frankly so are any "rate the doctor sites" Remember that these sites use only patient reviews to rank doctors. This means the ratings are based more on opinion that actual data showing how well a doctor provided treatment or care.

I like data, opinions < data