Turn Off Ads?
Page 6 of 26 FirstFirst ... 234567891016 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 389

Thread: Mike Leake, Best of the Bunch?

  1. #76
    Member joshua's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    1,218

    Re: Mike Leake, Best of the Bunch?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    If Leake threw 96 mph, he'd be a much better and much more valuable pitcher.
    While putting up the exact same statistics?

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #77
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    20,436

    Re: Mike Leake, Best of the Bunch?

    Quote Originally Posted by joshua View Post
    While putting up the exact same statistics?
    Why would you argue that he would put up the exact same statistics? But no, if he threw 96mph but put up the exact same statitistics, he'd be correctly characterized as a back end arm.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  4. #78
    Chicks dig the wRC+ villain612's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    2,936

    Re: Mike Leake, Best of the Bunch?

    If Mat Latos was not injured currently, there's no way that so many people would be advocating keeping Leake over Latos. That's all I'm saying.

    I know staying healthy is an attribute in and of itself, but Latos has made 30+ starts 4 years in a row.

    The injury bug happens. It will hit Leake at some point too.
    Quote Originally Posted by fipp View Post
    How old are you? Do you want to be humiliated?

  5. Likes:

    Homer's Ghost (04-16-2014),Kingspoint (04-16-2014),Old school 1983 (04-17-2014)

  6. #79
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    All around
    Posts
    8,031

    Re: Mike Leake, Best of the Bunch?

    Until proven otherwise, Cueto is #1, Latos is 1A, Bailey is 3, while Leake is 4 with Cingrani pushing him for that honor. On another staff, Leake would be higher, but not on this one right now.
    "One problem with people who have no vices is that they're pretty sure to have some annoying virtues."

  7. Likes:

    Big Klu (04-17-2014),Old school 1983 (04-17-2014),villain612 (04-16-2014),_Sir_Charles_ (04-16-2014)

  8. #80
    Member klw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    10,164

    Re: Mike Leake, Best of the Bunch?

    I would rank Leake ahead of Bailey at this point. Bailey may have better stuff and "potential" but Leake is currently the more effective pitcher. This year's sample size is small and last year's performance was close. This is Bailey's 11th season as a professional (10th full) and he is 18 months older than Leake. Bailey may have more upside to improve towards and have his results match his peripheral stats but as things stand now I would have Leake ahead of him.

    My list:
    1. Cueto
    2. Cingrani
    3. Leake
    4. Bailey
    5. Simon
    NA- Latos

    Simon is 5th simply based upon small sample size.

  9. Likes:

    markymark69 (04-16-2014)

  10. #81
    Greene Man Wonderful Monds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    4,272

    Re: Mike Leake, Best of the Bunch?

    Leake is a strong 3 at worst. Calling him a back end arm is lolworthy.
    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Ghosts, you gotta lay off the weaponized hallucinogens, my man.

  11. Likes:

    '69 & Vine (04-16-2014),757690 (04-16-2014),KittyDuran (04-16-2014),REDREAD (04-17-2014),_Sir_Charles_ (04-16-2014)

  12. #82
    Greene Man Wonderful Monds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    4,272

    Re: Mike Leake, Best of the Bunch?

    I also just want to thank Mike for allowing the old arguments about Bronson Arroyo to live on under his name.
    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Ghosts, you gotta lay off the weaponized hallucinogens, my man.

  13. Likes:

    deljaso (04-17-2014),KittyDuran (04-16-2014)

  14. #83
    Member 757690's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dayton
    Posts
    18,081

    Re: Mike Leake, Best of the Bunch?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Yes, yes. That is exactly the arguement that was made!

    But you're welcome to construct another statistical one for the sake of discussion.
    If WAR was base in xFIP, which actually does a better job of isolating what pitchers historically have the most control over when they pitch, Leake would have much closer WAR to Latos and Bailey.

    Career xFIP:

    Latos: 3.59
    Bailey: 3.89
    Leake: 3.87
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post
    This team is like watching Zero Hour and thinking you are watching Airplane and waiting for the funny.

  15. #84
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    All around
    Posts
    8,031

    Re: Mike Leake, Best of the Bunch?

    Anyone noticing the difference between the way Cueto is pitching today and Leake pitched yesterday?

    This explains the difference between the two.
    "One problem with people who have no vices is that they're pretty sure to have some annoying virtues."

  16. #85
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    20,436

    Re: Mike Leake, Best of the Bunch?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    Leake is a strong 3 at worst. Calling him a back end arm is lolworthy.
    Actually, the mounds of things that have to be ignored to make that argument is grounds for rounds of laugh-like sounds.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  17. #86
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    20,436

    Re: Mike Leake, Best of the Bunch?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    If WAR was base in xFIP, which actually does a better job of isolating what pitchers historically have the most control over when they pitch, Leake would have much closer WAR to Latos and Bailey.

    Career xFIP:

    Latos: 3.59
    Bailey: 3.89
    Leake: 3.87
    But as you know (because this has been explained to you patiently and exhaustively several times in multiple threads), using xFIP for Leake innapropriately skews his performance leading to conclusions such as Leake=Homer, Leake=Cueto, Leake is tremendously valuable etc.
    Last edited by jojo; 04-16-2014 at 01:58 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  18. #87
    Greene Man Wonderful Monds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    4,272

    Re: Mike Leake, Best of the Bunch?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Actually, the mounds of things that have to be ignored to make that argument is grounds for rounds of laugh-like sounds.
    Not really. He performs. That's pretty much the end of the story.
    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Ghosts, you gotta lay off the weaponized hallucinogens, my man.

  19. #88
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    20,436

    Re: Mike Leake, Best of the Bunch?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    Not really. He performs. That's pretty much the end of the story.
    His does perform. That is without question. It's just that his performance hasn't been that of someone who is a strong 3 at worst. That kinda is the actual story though I get some find it less exciting to contemplate.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  20. #89
    I'm not dead! Homer's Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    26,516

    Re: Mike Leake, Best of the Bunch?

    I bet if we posted this thread 3 weeks ago nobody would have Cueto atop their lists.

    Fans are fun lol
    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    shots on me when I'm in cincinnati for the fourth if scooter goes yabo again

  21. Likes:

    bigredmechanism (04-17-2014),markymark69 (04-16-2014),REDREAD (04-17-2014)

  22. #90
    Member 757690's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dayton
    Posts
    18,081

    Re: Mike Leake, Best of the Bunch?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    But as you know using xFIP for Leake innapropriately skews his performance because this and why it is so have been explained to you several times in multiple threads.
    No. I don't know, it, because it is not true, no matter how many times you claim it is.

    You claim that Leake historically has given up more home runs per flyball than the average pitcher, so we should conclude that he will always give up lots of home runs. That flys in the face of decades of data that shows that pitchers tend to give up the same number of home runs per flyballs over their careers.

    But let's assume that Leake is an outlier, just for the sake if argument. You still are incorrect, since last year, Leake's home run per fly ball rate normalized to very close to league average, and that resulted in a much lower home run rate for Leake last year, and a much better year for Leake overall. So it is false that Leake has sustained an historically high home run to flyball rate over his career. He improved his greatly last year, just as had been predicted.

    You really don't have the fast behind you on this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post
    This team is like watching Zero Hour and thinking you are watching Airplane and waiting for the funny.

  23. Likes:

    jimbo (04-16-2014)


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | cumberlandreds | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | RedsfaninMT | redsfan1995 | The Operator