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Thread: Karl Ravech destroying Billy Hamilton on the BBTN podcast

  1. #151
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Karl Ravech destroying Billy Hamilton on the BBTN podcast

    Well I don't think he'll have a .250 OBP, but if he did he wouldn't hit leadoff all year.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

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  3. #152
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    Re: Karl Ravech destroying Billy Hamilton on the BBTN podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No, I said LESS THAN a tenth of a second. Billy Hamilton has been timed, by me, as fast as 3.64 from the left side to first base on a swing. I have seen more than a handful of guys below 3.74. I have timed guys that most people on this board have never heard of below 3.75. Do you think if there were hitters even in the realm of Barry Bonds at the plate that anyone on this board would have not heard of him? OF course not. That is my point. Barry Bonds hitting ability is so much more rare and unseen than Billy Hamilton's speed it isn't even funny. The two simply aren't comparable. Guys are close to being as fast as Hamilton and there are a few guys in any given year in the game that are close enough to it. There simply aren't guys close to the hitter that Bonds was until you get back to Ted Williams or Babe Ruth.

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    You clearly didn't read the thread. Someone compared the rarity of Hamilton's speed to the hitting ability to Bonds in its rarity. They aren't close.

    Alright. I understand your point. As for your Bonds argument, although you are correct nobody was even close to Barry Bonds. But he was a hall of fame talent who took a vigorous regimen of anabolic steroids. Hard to say if he would have posted those consecutive years of high OPS+. I think that had Griffey taken roids as a young kid and had 10+ more years of his prime with more power he would have put up similar numbers.

  4. #153
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Karl Ravech destroying Billy Hamilton on the BBTN podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Well I don't think he'll have a .250 OBP, but if he did he wouldn't hit leadoff all year.
    I agree he wouldn't be leading off, just saying if he did then off with their heads
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  5. #154
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Karl Ravech destroying Billy Hamilton on the BBTN podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    I agree with Doug on this one. Nobody is saying Billy isn't the fastest guy in the league. But the actual difference between him and several other guys is miniscule. Less than a 1/10 of a second...think about that for a minute or two.

    There's a bunch more to stealing bases than just being fast. Thus far in the bigs, we've seen that he is fast. But we haven't seen good reads of the pitcher, solid secondary leads, excellent jumps...at least not regularly. Quite often it's a bang-bang play or even the ball beating him there by quite a bit. He's got a long way to go before he should be compared to Henderson, Raines, etc. The only time I put him in with that group is when I talk about the effect he has on the pitcher and defense when he's on base. The amount of distraction he is causing. That's on par with those all-time great thieves. But that's mostly just because of his reputation coming into the league...not MLB results.

    He's currently 7 for 9 in SB's. It really should be 6 for 9 or even 5 for 9. With a halfway decent tag, he'd be toast on two of those for sure.
    A 10th of a second is the difference between Olympic Gold Medal's and perhaps nothing. Sprinters, runners, swimmers, etc train their tails off for those minuscule tenth's. You know what a 10th of a second is, the difference between a good and bad tag. Its the difference between taking the ball out cleanly and having to spend a little extra time finding the seems of the baseball. Its the difference between a good break and an average break to cover 1st by the pitcher.

    Take a look at a stolen base and all the components that go into catching Hamilton speeding. A pitcher is more likely to throw a fastball with Hamilton on base in order to save hundredths of a second. How much attention does he pay to make sure that he can shorten Hamilton's lead. Then you need a fast pitch, a quick catch and release by the catcher, a throw on line, and then a quick tag in order to have a chance to nab Hamilton. You know when tenths of a second matter, when the opposing team is worrying about hundredths.

  6. #155
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    Re: Karl Ravech destroying Billy Hamilton on the BBTN podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    A 10th of a second is the difference between Olympic Gold Medal's and perhaps nothing. Sprinters, runners, swimmers, etc train their tails off for those minuscule tenth's. You know what a 10th of a second is, the difference between a good and bad tag. Its the difference between taking the ball out cleanly and having to spend a little extra time finding the seems of the baseball. Its the difference between a good break and an average break to cover 1st by the pitcher.

    Take a look at a stolen base and all the components that go into catching Hamilton speeding. A pitcher is more likely to throw a fastball with Hamilton on base in order to save hundredths of a second. How much attention does he pay to make sure that he can shorten Hamilton's lead. Then you need a fast pitch, a quick catch and release by the catcher, a throw on line, and then a quick tag in order to have a chance to nab Hamilton. You know when tenths of a second matter, when the opposing team is worrying about hundredths.
    I understand what you are trying to say with the whole timing thing, but here is my point. Billy Hamilton, Dee Gordon, Michael Bourne in his prime.... if they got a decent jump, their speed was so good that between the time to the plate and the catchers pop time, they there really isn't a way to catch them. Sure, perhaps Hamilton is a fraction of a tenth of a second faster than they are over that 90 feet (well, less because they are all leading off), but the point remains the same. If those guys get a decent jump there really isn't anything the combo can do to keep them from stealing the bag. Guys ARE in the same realm as Hamilton when it comes to that.

    Hitters in the same realm as Bonds? Not until you go to Williams and Ruth. That is the difference.

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    Here is a fun question for everyone.

    What is the breaking point for moving Billy Hamilton down in the lineup? What does his OBP need to be and on what date do you finally say that enough is enough if he doesn't improve it?

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    Re: Karl Ravech destroying Billy Hamilton on the BBTN podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post

    Here is a fun question for everyone.

    What is the breaking point for moving Billy Hamilton down in the lineup? What does his OBP need to be and on what date do you finally say that enough is enough if he doesn't improve it?
    If he doesn't have an OBP over .275 by the end of May it'd probably be worth it to move him down in the lineup IMO.

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    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Karl Ravech destroying Billy Hamilton on the BBTN podcast

    Billy shouldn't be leading off at all.

    Put the four best offensive players in the tip four spots.

    That isn't Billy yet.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Karl Ravech destroying Billy Hamilton on the BBTN podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Billy shouldn't be leading off at all.

    Put the four best offensive players in the tip four spots.

    That isn't Billy yet.

    I don't know.. You don't want all of those slow guys with high OBPs clogging the bases....

  12. #159
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    Re: Karl Ravech destroying Billy Hamilton on the BBTN podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsLvr View Post
    I don't know.. You don't want all of those slow guys with high OBPs clogging the bases....

    I love base cloggers and lollygaggers
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: Karl Ravech destroying Billy Hamilton on the BBTN podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I understand what you are trying to say with the whole timing thing, but here is my point. Billy Hamilton, Dee Gordon, Michael Bourne in his prime.... if they got a decent jump, their speed was so good that between the time to the plate and the catchers pop time, they there really isn't a way to catch them. Sure, perhaps Hamilton is a fraction of a tenth of a second faster than they are over that 90 feet (well, less because they are all leading off), but the point remains the same. If those guys get a decent jump there really isn't anything the combo can do to keep them from stealing the bag. Guys ARE in the same realm as Hamilton when it comes to that.

    Hitters in the same realm as Bonds? Not until you go to Williams and Ruth. That is the difference.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Here is a fun question for everyone.

    What is the breaking point for moving Billy Hamilton down in the lineup? What does his OBP need to be and on what date do you finally say that enough is enough if he doesn't improve it?
    He wouldn't bat lead off for me until he could prove that he makes an out less than 67% of the time. Until then, he bats seventh. It might take two years to convince me because I'm pig headed and don't care much about "speed".
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

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  15. #161
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Karl Ravech destroying Billy Hamilton on the BBTN podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsLvr View Post
    I don't know.. You don't want all of those slow guys with high OBPs clogging the bases....
    Because the Reds are a team full of high OBP guys?
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

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  17. #162
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Karl Ravech destroying Billy Hamilton on the BBTN podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Billy shouldn't be leading off at all.

    Put the four best offensive players in the tip four spots.

    That isn't Billy yet.
    Joey Votto says Billy Hamilton offers him protection. Joey Votto sees more fastballs hitting 2nd with Billy Hamilton on base. Every time Billy Hamilton reaches base Joey Votto will be up next.

    I like those odds.

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    Re: Karl Ravech destroying Billy Hamilton on the BBTN podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels View Post
    I'm pig headed and don't care much about "speed".
    Your parents shouldn't have named you wheels.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  21. #164
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    Re: Karl Ravech destroying Billy Hamilton on the BBTN podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Joey Votto says Billy Hamilton offers him protection. Joey Votto sees more fastballs hitting 2nd with Billy Hamilton on base. Every time Billy Hamilton reaches base Joey Votto will be up next.

    I like those odds.
    Unfortunately unless Billy gets on more, Joey won't get that benefit.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Karl Ravech destroying Billy Hamilton on the BBTN podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Joey Votto says Billy Hamilton offers him protection. Joey Votto sees more fastballs hitting 2nd with Billy Hamilton on base. Every time Billy Hamilton reaches base Joey Votto will be up next.

    I like those odds.
    http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/200...your-lineup-by

    Lead-Off

    The old-school book says to put a speedy guy up top. Power isn't important, and OBP is nice, but comes second to speed.

    The Book says OBP is king. The lead-off hitter comes to bat only 36% of the time with a runner on base, versus 44% of the time for the next lowest spot in the lineup, so why waste homeruns? The lead-off hitter also comes to the plate the most times per game, so why give away outs? As for speed, stealing bases is most valuable in front of singles hitters, and since the top of the order is going to be full of power hitters, they're not as important. The lead-off hitter is one of the best three hitters on the team, the guy without homerun power. Speed is nice, as this batter will have plenty of chances to run the bases with good hitters behind him.


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