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Thread: Who made the BIGGER Mistake? Bryce Harper or Manager Matt Williams?

  1. #46
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Who made the BIGGER Mistake? Bryce Harper or Manager Matt Williams?

    Quote Originally Posted by kpresidente View Post
    Well, do you think Matt Williams believes wins and losses ride on whether guys run out ground balls? I'll give the guy a little more credit than that. He probably thinks he's not seeing enough effort in general so he's going to zero in on it with a microscope until he gets the broader changes he's looking for. That's my speculation, at least.
    If he doesn't believe that, then he shouldn't be making an example of something because of it.

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  3. #47
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Who made the BIGGER Mistake? Bryce Harper or Manager Matt Williams?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    And then a guy pulls up lame and misses four weeks and you finish 4 games back.
    To be fair, that will happen about the same number of times that the pitcher will bobble the throw, like you mentioned earlier. Probably fewer.

    Harper broke a rule. We can debate how useful or how stupid the rule is, but if you break a rule, you need to be held accountable.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  4. #48
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Who made the BIGGER Mistake? Bryce Harper or Manager Matt Williams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    To be fair, that will happen about the same number of times that the pitcher will bobble the throw, like you mentioned earlier. Probably fewer.

    Harper broke a rule. We can debate how useful or how stupid the rule is, but if you break a rule, you need to be held accountable.
    I can agree there.

    I just think it is a very, very stupid rule.

  5. #49
    Member kpresidente's Avatar
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    Re: Who made the BIGGER Mistake? Bryce Harper or Manager Matt Williams?

    What else is he going to do, write down a list of Doug approved situations when it's OK to dogg it then pin it up on the locker room wall for reference? Screw that. Make 'em hustle every play and you don't have to worry about it.

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  7. #50
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Who made the BIGGER Mistake? Bryce Harper or Manager Matt Williams?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Busting your butt down the first base line is 99% of the time not worth it. If a guy throws the ball away, you are going to be safe either way. If not, you are out. This isn't little league where there are guys playing short and second who can barely throw the ball the distance required to get it to first base. It seems that the little league mentality stretches to the big leagues where this hustle to first effort is going to be rewarded more than three times a season. It won't be. But man, do people sure get mad over it.
    Disagree. If you're a guy that hustles on every play, fielders know that because it comes through on the scouting reports. That might cause a shortstop to rush a throw from a backhanded groundball because he knows the guy is going full speed down the line. It may well mean a few more errors over the course of a season. If a whole team does it, that can add up through the season.

    If you give fielders more reason to rush making a play, there will be more errors. Jogging down the line is an invitation for them to make a better play.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  9. #51
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Who made the BIGGER Mistake? Bryce Harper or Manager Matt Williams?

    Quote Originally Posted by kpresidente View Post
    What else is he going to do, write down a list of Doug approved situations when it's OK to dogg it then pin it up on the locker room wall for reference? Screw that. Make 'em hustle every play and you don't have to worry about it.
    I would start with not pulling your best hitter because he didn't bust it down to first base on a tapper to the stinking pitcher like it was a big deal. Sure, he literally jogged like a 60-year-old man with a hip replacement on it. If he did that on a weak grounder to shortstop, yeah, maybe you get upset about that. There is a chance of at least making something happen there. But to the pitcher? Nah.

    It's a judgment call. Everything isn't created equally. I think Williams had the wrong reaction here. If you know how to get in touch with him and want to put him in touch with me, we can work on the Doug approved situations. Just let me know.

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  11. #52
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Who made the BIGGER Mistake? Bryce Harper or Manager Matt Williams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    1. Williams said he made the right decision.
    2. Harper said Williams made the right decision.
    3. GM Rizzo said Williams made the right decision.

    Seems like the only people up in arms about the situation are certain posters here at RZ. I'm not sure how Williams had any other choice: If you make a team rule, how do you then excuse your superstar the first time he breaks said rule?
    I' think you're in error here. Myself, and the many who have responded, are not upset or infuriated over the manager's call. It was just a situation that arose and I wanted to get people's feel on it. As I initially said - there are valid arguments to both sides of the discussion. And that was my only intent ... to initiate discussion, and not draw sides where we go after either Williams or Harper.

    I also really respect Harper's actions/response to it too. Very professional. We all know that some players, due to ego, wouldn't have been so gracious, and would have thrown a fit.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  12. #53
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Who made the BIGGER Mistake? Bryce Harper or Manager Matt Williams?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    This is a key point in this play. Williams didn't punish Harper for not hustling, he punished him for not finishing the play. Harper gave up on it, and headed back to the dugout before he was out.
    You, and dubc47834, are right with this. And that point evaded me. He was punished, not so much for not hustling down the line, but he didn't finish the play.

    I have no problem at all with Williams jerking him. That's similar to a parent setting boundaries (rules) and the kid crosses it. To not act sends the wrong message to that kid (as well as the other siblings) ... "Hey! If he can get away with it, then I can too". You then lose control.

    Making an "example" of Harper - who had no problem with it - will very well send a message to the rest of the team that our manager means what he says irregardless of who you are, and what your stature is on this team.

    The more I think about it, it's no different then a player hitting a lazy, routine fly ball to the OF, slinging the bat down and casually trotting down the line waiting for seems to be a sure out. Sure, it's just as wrong (I guess). But it occurs daily in games and isn't going to change anytime soon. To change it would mean a heck of a lot of benchings! LOL
    Last edited by GAC; 04-21-2014 at 05:47 AM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Member RadfordVA's Avatar
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    Re: Who made the BIGGER Mistake? Bryce Harper or Manager Matt Williams?

    I like hustle as much as the next guy, but if I seen that play without knowing what happened, I would not have thought twice about it. Didn't jump out to me as extraordinary at all.

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    Re: Who made the BIGGER Mistake? Bryce Harper or Manager Matt Williams?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Bryce Harper is not getting paid to run down the line. Bryce Harper is getting paid to get hits and play defense. You can run down the line just fine. Most Americans can. But they don't pay for that because we can all do that. They pay for being able to hit the baseball against the best pitchers in the world. And to play defense well enough when the other best hitters in the world are at the plate.
    If you think this is about running down a line or hustling, you're missing the point entirely.
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    Re: Who made the BIGGER Mistake? Bryce Harper or Manager Matt Williams?

    I think williams did the right thing. If you make a "rule" in spring training you have to do something if someone breaks it and it shouldnīt matter who the guy is.

    Do I think it is clever to run 100% every time you hit a pop-up etc.? no of course not but the guys get paid millions and donīt have to run that much during a game => itīs not going to hurt to run to first...
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

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    Re: Who made the BIGGER Mistake? Bryce Harper or Manager Matt Williams?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Bryce Harper is not getting paid to run down the line. Bryce Harper is getting paid to get hits and play defense. You can run down the line just fine. Most Americans can. But they don't pay for that because we can all do that. They pay for being able to hit the baseball against the best pitchers in the world. And to play defense well enough when the other best hitters in the world are at the plate.
    Obviously Matt Williams thinks he is getting paid to run down the line!

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    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Who made the BIGGER Mistake? Bryce Harper or Manager Matt Williams?

    So, instead of pulling Harper from the game for that lack of hustle, how would people have felt if he chewed Harper out (embarrassed him) in front of his teammates? Not taking it into the tunnel or manager's office but right there for everyone to see.
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    Re: Who made the BIGGER Mistake? Bryce Harper or Manager Matt Williams?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I can agree there.

    I just think it is a very, very stupid rule.
    Question. Do you think Hamilton should have not run as hard as usual on his way down to 1st on the ground ball to Rizzo that he ended up beating out? Looked like he was running hard the whole way.
    The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. -- Terrance Mann (Field of Dreams)

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    Pimpin...literally!!! dubc47834's Avatar
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    Re: Who made the BIGGER Mistake? Bryce Harper or Manager Matt Williams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    So, instead of pulling Harper from the game for that lack of hustle, how would people have felt if he chewed Harper out (embarrassed him) in front of his teammates? Not taking it into the tunnel or manager's office but right there for everyone to see.
    I think that is a way of dealing with what happened, I just dont feel it is the right way to deal with it. Public embarrassment like that to me is rarely the right way to handle anything. Pulling him from the game to me was the right thing to do because it sends the message that if you dont want to play hard or the right way then you're not going to play period. I don't think it is lazy managing as another poster said. Could he have pulled Harper down in the tunnel and gave him a good lashing with no one around, sure, but knowing what type player Williams was, I don't think he would do that. Harper has handled this pretty good and I'm sure he took a hit to his ego. I doubt he will do it again any time soon. In my opinion Williams handled it the way I would have, were there other options, yeah, and they could be right also, as long as Williams gets his point across. In this instance I think he did!!!

    Its all about knowing your players and they they respond to certain things.


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