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Thread: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

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    Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Since I cannot post in the ORG--I thought I would have my own say, and hear what others have to say (OR NOT... GENERALLY THOSE ORG PEOPLE DO NOT VENTURE DOWN TO THE SUN DECK I GATHER)

    First things first. To the Sabrologists that figure to have everything explained to the last WAR, OPS, BABIP, etc... there is more to baseball and a team game. Get out of the bubble. Put down the XBox and MLB 2014 and realize that.

    To the one poster that said Bench and Morgan only over Votto.

    I would take a team full of Pete Rose anyday of the week. Votto may get on base more than Pete. Votto may hit for more power that Pete, well, but Rose could play 2B, 3B, OF. Pete could run the bases. Pete was a leader and a true baseball player. He faced both personal and physical adversity and played through it. Day in and Day out.

    Is Votto a better hitter than Perez. Sure, I guess. Is he a better baseball player than Perez.. that is subject for debate.

    One thing I do know. You CANNOT take a player by his WAR his OPS his wRC or whatever the hell else you come up with, and definitively say--that person is better, and that person would make the team better.

    Sure Votto could walk with the best players in the game, not that I think Votto would walk 130+ times with a line-up of Rose, Morgan, Perez, Bench, Foster... etc. So, yes Joey would have to put the ball in play more... Now, would we get pre-July 2012 Votto, or post July-2012 Votto?

    I also wonder how Votto would have held up in that clubhouse.

    Just looking at Rose, Bench, and Perez. Here you have multi-year all-stars and MVP's who have a penchant for winning and playing, and above all else, doing and/or adapting their position/game to either the whims of management or to better the team.

    Perez All-star third baseman. All-star first baseman
    Rose All-star second baseman(moved because of Helms) All-Star/gold glove outfielder (Moved because of Foster) and All-Star third baseman
    Bench All-Star catcher that spot started in the outfield, firstbase, and thirdbase (yes I know...to keep his bat in the line-up)

    Votto had an opportunity to do this when Yonder Alonzo came up-- and when asked by John Fay, did he say... "I'll do whatever is best to help this team?"
    NO.
    “I think I’m a pretty good first baseman,” Votto said. “And I think one the best attributes as a team is infield defense. We have four very good — and obviously at second and third — great defenders.”
    I cannot imagine how the BRM Reds would have responded to that quote.

    Or--better yet... how Votto and his sensitivity would be impacted by the year to year negotiating style of Bob Howsam.

    Especially if Votto went in to management and said

    "People didn't expect me to have less power than when I was in my middle-20s, after a couple of knee surgeries and some aging?" Votto said. "Pay attention to the trends, man. It drives me crazy. How could you not expect players to make changes as their career goes along? I'm not the same guy I was five years ago, and I'm not the same guy now that I'll be in five years."
    or

    "[The decline in power] doesn't mean I can't still be at my peak and do other things that provide value for the team," Votto said. "I think people just wanted me to be a traditional 35-homer, 100-RBI guy, because that's what they saw as a best-case scenario for any corner guy. I think my style of play challenges people to think outside the box, and it challenges people to go against their former ideas of what a good player looks like."
    Yeah, not sure that would have went over at all with Howsam--a man that fought tooth and nail over a $2500 raise after the 1970 season with Pete Rose, because Rose failed to win a third consecutive batting title, and consequently did not even lead his team in hitting that year. (Rose hit .316 and Perez hit .317.)

    Would Votto have started for the Big Red Machine. Perhaps. I don't think he would have moved out Perez from 1970-1976. If anything, Votto would have been a person that either learned to play thirdbase OR leftfield and Griffey would have been sacrificed.

    BUT... that would be assuming that Votto would be at least average on the basepaths. Because, that my friend is something that Morgan, Rose,Perez, and Bench would not have put up with.

    So--I think, possibly the line-up would have been

    Rose--RF
    Votto--3B
    Morgan--2B
    Perez--1B
    Bench--C
    Foster--LF
    Concepcion--SS
    Geronimo--CF

    or
    Rose--3B
    Votto--RF
    Morgan--2B
    Perez--1B
    Bench--C
    Foster--LF
    Concepcion--SS
    Geronimo--CF

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    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Votto View Post
    First things first. To the Sabrologists that figure to have everything explained to the last WAR, OPS, BABIP, etc... there is more to baseball and a team game. Get out of the bubble. Put down the XBox and MLB 2014 and realize that.
    Word to the wise - crap like this is not going to go over well in the ORG, as it shouldn't.

    Why is your name Don Votto by the way? You spend 90% of your time on this site tearing him down.

    I mean, you are really going to go with the moving Votto to left field for Yonder Alonso bit? really?

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    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    If the numbers were closer, you'd have a better argument (though I think your main argument is that you don't like Joey)
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    Word to the wise - crap like this is not going to go over well in the ORG, as it shouldn't.

    Why is your name Don Votto by the way? You spend 90% of your time on this site tearing him down.

    I mean, you are really going to go with the moving Votto to left field for Yonder Alonso bit? really?
    First of all--Forgive the xBox/MLB 2014 shot. I only meant to say that, in an age, where we have video games and fantasy games--people think of these players as just robots, that we can move in and out... That Tony Perez was more to the Big Red Machine than his OPS+

    I like the name Don Votto. I picked it from my dog, who incidentally is named Don Votto. Quite a story--if you have time to hear about it.

    But more importantly--how am I tearing down Joey Votto?

    Because, I am a realist? Because I am pointing out things that are frightening and scary trends to the Cincinnati Reds?

    Because I have pointed out that Votto's power numbers have dropped significantly since July, 2012. (Something he admitted to)

    Because I have stated that at present course I do not believe Votto makes the Hall of Fame because of the disheartening drop of power?

    Because I have misgivings that Joey Votto's unjury has reminded me of Don Mattingly and looked at their career?

    Because I have pointed out the weird aberration that since July, 2012 Shin Soo Choo and Joey Votto are eerily similiar in stats--as well as pay now?

    Because I thought that Votto should consider a move for Alonso, because I thought this team could use a player with .300/.400/.500 potential?

    (And yes--let's see how many other stud players can hit .300/.400/.500 for San Diego in a division of pitchers parks, with offensive juggernauts like Seth Smith, Carlos Quentin, and Chase Headley surrounding him.

    So.... yes... Sorry if my takes in reality irritate you. It is just the musings of a 42 year old man.

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    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    So you are a realist, but tony Perez is better even though the stats say quite the opposite. Got it.

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    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Here is Tony's OPS per season during the Big Red Machine years of 1970-1976

    70 990
    71 764
    72 846
    73 919
    74 791
    75 816
    76 779

    I think it's going to take some serious explaining to justify Perez playing ahead of Votto.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Don, the problem I have is it is the same tired argument about SABR - ie, that they don't understand the "real" game.

    Votto is a better hitter than Perez. X2. OTOH, Doggie was a huge presence in the clubhouse and may have been the oil that kept the enormous egos of Rose, Morgan and Bench in synch. Personally I'd take Klu in his prime over either Perez or Votto. Ted's problem was his back - ended his career way short of what he could have done. Rose did move positions for the good of the team. He is a definite minority through baseball history. Bench did not move for the good of the team - but to save his knees. It was a ghastly experiment, too. Worst third sacker I ever saw. They moved him about three years too late but that's because he resisted moving until it was too late. Perez moved to first because they traded May and first was Tony's natural position. He was only an All STar 3Bman because of his bat - his glove was at best adequate at third, honestly less than that. Basically the Reds then had 2 good first basemen and they did the same thing today's Reds did, just a couple years later - they traded one of them for a need. They got Morgan et al. Today's Reds got Latos. Also, the Reds found a trade for an ace type pitcher to move Alonso. As for how Votto would have fared negotiating with Howsam - so what? How do you think ANY of today's players would have fared? The simple fact is that it was a totally different era with all the power in the owner's hands and none to the players. Under those conditions, Votto would have accepted his fifty thou and kept his mouth shut like all the players except for a very few did. And when the worm turned and the MLBPA gained the upper hand he would have been bitter and angry and gone for the owner's throats - just like players then did. That kind of treatment from owners is why Gary Nolan hates his baseball experience to this day - or rather his experiences with ownership. Really, the Howsam and negotiating thing is meaningless as pertains to Joey.

    Finally - several posters from ORG come here to comment and help liven threads. When your time is up you will automatically get in the ORG. I do agree your s/n seems odd because you DO constantly harp on how overrated Votto is. No big deal, though, I only take from your posts that you are a huge fan, just tending to more pessimistic (pessimists always call it being realistic). I like your posts overall, I don't always agree, but you at least bring some fresh topics and threads. The Votto one is really old and over wrought, though. Look back through ORG and you'll see the same arguments you have made being drug up over and over again. Joey has been trashed and dissed since his honeymoon time ended with the close of 2010 and his MVP.
    Last edited by RedlegJake; 05-04-2014 at 09:03 PM.
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    cumberlandreds (05-05-2014)

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Joey has been trashed and dissed since his honeymoon time ended with the close of 2010 and his MVP.
    His honeymoon ended after 2010? Yikes. Tough crowd. He was the best hitter in baseball pre-injury...at least top 3. And I was more than satisfied with him.

    It ended for me sometime last summer, and my reasoning is this...He is payed to be not only an elite on-base guy, but an elite slugger as well. Some would argue defender too, but as long as he's adequate with the glove, I'm satisfied. Anyway, the decline in power is concerning, and I'm not talking just HR's either, the decline in 2B's, which was really his bread and butter, are really what's concerning.

    Like it or not, he signed his contract, given to him by a team that does not have the payroll capability of the big clubs around the league, and who expected to have a middle of the order hammer for at least 5 years after he signed it. He's now held to that standard, and he should be.

    Now what he does has high value, only a fool would dispute that, but IMO it isn't what the Reds paid for or what they need him to be in order to be successful.

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    Don Votto (05-04-2014)

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy Jones View Post
    His honeymoon ended after 2010? Yikes. Tough crowd. He was the best hitter in baseball pre-injury...at least top 3. And I was more than satisfied with him.

    It ended for me sometime last summer, and my reasoning is this...He is payed to be not only an elite on-base guy, but an elite slugger as well. Some would argue defender too, but as long as he's adequate with the glove, I'm satisfied. Anyway, the decline in power is concerning, and I'm not talking just HR's either, the decline in 2B's, which was really his bread and butter, are really what's concerning.

    Like it or not, he signed his contract, given to him by a team that does not have the payroll capability of the big clubs around the league, and who expected to have a middle of the order hammer for at least 5 years after he signed it. He's now held to that standard, and he should be.

    Now what he does has high value, only a fool would dispute that, but IMO it isn't what the Reds paid for or what they need him to be in order to be successful.
    Thank you Tracy--that is what I have been trying to say. A poster at ORG commented on what Votto would have to do... here it is... from my standpoint--

    MINIMUMS FOR YEARS 30-34
    .300+ (although SABRologists will tell you Batting Average is silly and is based on luck... ok.
    45+ doubles
    20+ homeruns.
    OPS .950

    There is it. Sorry, but 30 doubles and 24 home runs in 162 games does not cut it for me.

    With a MINIMUM of 65 extra base hits... Votto could hit third in a lineup with PATHETIC OBP people hitting in front of him and still get 95+RBI (see pre-July 2012 Votto)

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Redleg--I was speaking with Bench's moving through the field from 1970-1977, where he played and started games in LF,1B, and 3B. I agree, when the Reds put him at third in the 1980's he was done.

    I don't dislike Votto. I am frustrated with his career, and where I fear it is going. So, yes, I suppose a bit pessimistic/realistic...whatever

    To me, it seems like it would be like signing a player like... Kevin Durant in basketball to a long term contract, and then in year one Durant gets hurt and then year two he comes back and says,

    KD: You know.... I want to be a complete efficient productive player, so, I am now going to only shoot wide open 10 footers, concentrate on getting my assists up to a minimum of 12 assists a game, and grab as many offensive boards as possible--that way I can have average a triple double for a whole season.

    Management: But Kevin-- we need you to score 25-30 points a game. We need you to shoot deep perimeter shots. We need you to spread the floor so our other players will benefit from the floor spacing and your deep jump shot.

    Kevin Nah... I will still have value. See, if I pass the ball, and let the others take the shots, they will get points to. And that is helping the team, PLUS my shooting percentage will be 70%. And again, I will have a triple double every night. How can you lose with a player averaging a triple double every night?

    Management: Well--did it work out for Robertson?

    Kevin--Nah those were the old days. Look, I will be contributing to the team, and I will be doing it in historic fashion, but my way is just in a different way that you built this team for. However, it will be efficient, so thanks for the input. As you know, true fans will appreciate my game.

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Here is Tony's OPS per season during the Big Red Machine years of 1970-1976

    70 990
    71 764
    72 846
    73 919
    74 791
    75 816
    76 779

    I think it's going to take some serious explaining to justify Perez playing ahead of Votto.
    Again--as I tried to say before... it is a TEAM. Perez was vital to the Reds chemistry. I am not discounting the numbers you are throwing at me. Those are great offensive numbers. I made an All-Reds team and put Votto as the firstbaseman over Perez, Bottomley (yes, I know... but he played a moment for the Reds), Kluszewski, Rose, and Frank McCormick. I get the numbers.

    Perez was more to the team than his numbers. Ask members of that team. Hell, his WAR was 2.6 in 1976--Driessen's WAR was 2.3 in 1977--and yet many of the Reds felt losing Perez was the difference maker, despite a resurgence in Bench, a decent year from Morgan, a MVP year from Foster, and a Cy Young performance from Seaver. It's easy to look back on it...and say, the Reds pitching staff gave up .71 more earned runs a game.. and there is the cause for the Dodgers beating out the Reds in 1977, while the Reds offense as a whole scored 50 less runs. But to the PLAYERS... and the MANAGER... the main difference was Perez.

    That has to mean something.

    The Yankees players said the same thing when O'Neill left. There was something different, something missing. And it was not his 38 year old stats... it was leadership, personality, whatever.... how do you quantify that? How do you put that down on a pad and calculate that variable?

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    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Votto View Post
    Again--as I tried to say before... it is a TEAM. Perez was vital to the Reds chemistry. I am not discounting the numbers you are throwing at me. Those are great offensive numbers. I made an All-Reds team and put Votto as the firstbaseman over Perez, Bottomley (yes, I know... but he played a moment for the Reds), Kluszewski, Rose, and Frank McCormick. I get the numbers.

    Perez was more to the team than his numbers. Ask members of that team. Hell, his WAR was 2.6 in 1976--Driessen's WAR was 2.3 in 1977--and yet many of the Reds felt losing Perez was the difference maker, despite a resurgence in Bench, a decent year from Morgan, a MVP year from Foster, and a Cy Young performance from Seaver. It's easy to look back on it...and say, the Reds pitching staff gave up .71 more earned runs a game.. and there is the cause for the Dodgers beating out the Reds in 1977, while the Reds offense as a whole scored 50 less runs. But to the PLAYERS... and the MANAGER... the main difference was Perez.

    That has to mean something.

    The Yankees players said the same thing when O'Neill left. There was something different, something missing. And it was not his 38 year old stats... it was leadership, personality, whatever.... how do you quantify that? How do you put that down on a pad and calculate that variable?

    Well there's no arguing against the character card. Not even going to try.

    The stats say Votto is the better player. There's no real dispute.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    How is it the character card? His own teammates said this about Perez.

    My argument was simply, and not sure you understand where I am coming from, The Reds would not gotten rid of Perez. If anything, Griffey or Foster would have been replaced by Votto--but not Perez, because he meant too much to the team.

    But, it is good to be forewarned that the only thing you can articulate are numbers.
    Last edited by Don Votto; 05-04-2014 at 10:19 PM.

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Votto View Post
    Cool good to be forewarned that the only thing you can articulate are numbers.
    It would take a ton of character to make up the difference between Joey and Doggie.

    I wasn't in the clubhouse 40 years ago and I'm not in the clubhouse now, so I'll take your word for it.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    You can read books, right? You can talk to Rose, right? You can ask questions of people that were in the clubhouse, right? Or are you incapable of doing so?


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