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Thread: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

  1. #16
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Votto View Post
    You can read books, right? You can talk to Rose, right? You can ask questions of people that were in the clubhouse, right? Or are you incapable of doing so?
    Do you honestly think Votto could bring down a team like the BRM? What would that say about Sparky, Bench, Rose, and Morgan?

    And that's assuming that Joey is a bad guy. Everything I've read says that's not accurate.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    I am saying--again--if Votto were transported in time back to 1970-1976, that the Reds would have kept Perez at first and put Votto at either 3B or LF. That Foster or Griffey would have been the ones to go, and not Perez.

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    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Votto View Post
    I am saying--again--if Votto were transported in time back to 1970-1976, that the Reds would have kept Perez at first and put Votto at either 3B or LF. That Foster or Griffey would have been the ones to go, and not Perez.


    Votto ain't playing Thirdbase or the outfield in the 1970s.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Votto ain't playing Thirdbase or the outfield in the 1970s.
    Then he is not as well rounded of a ballplayer that Perez or even Rose for that matter.

    It's not like Votto is Keith Hernandez at first base.

    If Rose can play third base in the 1970's, if Greg Luzinski could play LF in the 1970's if Willie Stargell could play LF in the 1970's.. I would think Votto could handle playing leftfield in the 1970's.
    Last edited by Don Votto; 05-05-2014 at 12:00 AM.

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    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Votto View Post
    Then he is not as well rounded of a ballplayer that Perez or even Rose for that matter.

    It's not like Votto is Keith Hernandez at first base.

    If Rose can play third base in the 1970's, if Greg Luzinski could play LF in the 1970's if Darrell Evans could play LF in the 1970's.. I would think Votto could handle playing leftfield in the 1970's.
    Then why wouldn't you move Perez off first in your example?
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Because Perez is the inherited firstbase man.

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Actually, Don, I would move Perez - he was the better athlete in his prime, imo. Joey is a better hitter. And yes I give Tony full credit for his clubhouse presence. The BRM may have worked so well because they had a Perez to tie together some superstar egos and keep focus on team and not "me". My bet is that they would have dealt one or the other for pitching, much as they did when Driessen came along. The dumb thing about the Perez trade was Driessen would have brought just as good/better a package after that WS he had and his minors pedigree.
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  10. #23
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Votto View Post
    Because Perez is the inherited firstbase man.
    But you were for moving Joey to the OF for Alonso?
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Yep. Because Alonso struggled mightily in the OF.

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Votto View Post
    Yep. Because Alonso struggled mightily in the OF.
    Joey has also.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    The dumb thing about the Perez trade was Driessen would have brought just as good/better a package after that WS he had and his minors pedigree.
    Statistically, and if you only look at the raw numbers, trading Perez instead of Driessen made complete sense. (Although I will agree that Driessen would have brought at least a some better return than the Reds got for Perez. Heck, a box of doughnuts would have been a better return.)

    I wonder if the Reds would have made one more run in 1977. I think by 1978 the Dodgers would definitely overtaken the Reds, with the ages of Morgan, Bench, and Rose. And then when Rose left town--it was all over. Although that 79 season was magical for sure. I remember sitting in the red seats with my father for game 1 of the playoffs. My father cheered for Dave Parker, and I looked at him like "WHAT THE HECK?" He told me that he and Parker played knothole together when they grew up on the West Side. That did not phase me... I was still mad at him!

    Driessen did have a decent 1977 year. His numbers were better than what Perez put up in Montreal.

    But, again--Perez's impact was more than numbers.

    Looking at that trade.... if Howsam could somehow have snagged Steve Rogers instead of Fryman and Murray. I mean Fryman was 13-13 with a 3.31 era and Dale Murray was the lead bullpen man in 1976 for the Expos, for what it is worth, but... man Steve Rogers with the Reds!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Joey has also.
    Then I guess Perez is the better well-rounded ball player
    Last edited by Don Votto; 05-05-2014 at 12:34 AM.

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Votto View Post


    Then I guess Perez is the better well-rounded ball player
    Your logic is dizzying.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  15. #28
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Howsam was stubborn and sometimes self defeating. In 77 they acquired Mike Caldwell and traded him because of a facial hair dispute. He won the Cy Young. He targeted the wrong pitcher for Perez. As you said it could have been Rogers. And the commish killed the Blue deal. They were too stubborn to offer on Gullett. Now, put it all together, and if a more foresightful commish, ownership and FO had ruled, the Reds could conceivably have had Seaver-Blue-Rogers-Gullett-Caldwell on the mound.
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  16. #29
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Mike Caldwell did not win the Cy Young award, but the Reds did trade him away for a bag of rocks in 1977, reportedly because the Reds didn't like his agent. In 1978 Caldwell went 22-9 with a 2.36 ERA for the Brewers, but he didn't win the Cy Young given Rod Guidry's 25-3 season. Don Gullett was basically done by 1978, and I don't know if the Expos would have dealt Rogers for Perez, but the 1978 Reds could have still had a top flight rotation but for bad trades and Bowie Kuhn. They had Seaver. But for Kuhn they would have had Vida Blue. They had traded away Caldwell and Ross Grimsley, each of whom was a 20 game winner in 1978, for the Brewers and Orioles respectively.
    The Reds tried several times to trade away Perez before they gave him away to the Expos. Earlier in the 1970s they tried to persuade the Royals to accept Perez for a young third baseman named George Brett (that would have been a great trade!). Prior to the 1975 season the Reds almost persuaded the Yankees to give them Graig Nettles for Perez.
    Tony Perez is in many ways my favorite Reds ever. Unlike Rose, Bench, Morgan and pretty much every other player to ever play for the Reds I have never heard of any criticisms of Perez as a person. However, Perez still wasn't the hitter Votto is.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    The dumb thing about the Perez trade was Driessen would have brought just as good/better a package after that WS he had and his minors pedigree.
    Yep. If the Reds had kept Perez and traded Driessen to the A's after the 1977 season for Vida Blue, Kuhn may not have voided the trade.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."


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