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Thread: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

  1. #31
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    Yep. If the Reds had kept Perez and traded Driessen to the A's after the 1977 season for Vida Blue, Kuhn may not have voided the trade.
    Why wouldn't Kuhn still veto the trade? If you look at the numbers in 1977 Driessen and Perez were pretty comparable with Driessen having more upside being better defensively and younger.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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  3. #32
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Well, Kuhn's reason for vetoing the trade was it was primarily a money deal with the Reds not trading a significant player, thereby creating "competitive imbalance" (as if that was never a problem for baseball before the Blue deal). Perhaps if they had offered Driessen he wouldn't have cancelled the deal. Then they keep Perez, add Blue and Seaver, and if they aren't so stubborn, also keep Gullett. Even without Gully, though, if they kept Caldwell, with Norman having a solid year they still would have had a great pitching staff.

    And RedsBaron, I stand corrected. My memory is getting old, I could have sworn Caldwell won the CY with the Crew but you are right, my friend. Heckuva year but he didn't win it, 2nd to Lightning.
    No - I am not from State Farm!

  4. #33
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    Why wouldn't Kuhn still veto the trade? If you look at the numbers in 1977 Driessen and Perez were pretty comparable with Driessen having more upside being better defensively and younger.
    The Reds traded Dave Revering, who had yet to play in the majors, to the A's for Vida Blue, the trade that Kuhn later voided. Perez had been gone for a year by that point. My guess is that a Driessen for Blue trade, or even a Perez for Blue trade had the Reds kept Doggie, might have met with Kuhn's o.k. As it was, the Reds got nothing useful when they traded Perez away after the '76 season.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  5. #34
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Well, Kuhn's reason for vetoing the trade was it was primarily a money deal with the Reds not trading a significant player, thereby creating "competitive imbalance" (as if that was never a problem for baseball before the Blue deal). Perhaps if they had offered Driessen he wouldn't have cancelled the deal. Then they keep Perez, add Blue and Seaver, and if they aren't so stubborn, also keep Gullett. Even without Gully, though, if they kept Caldwell, with Norman having a solid year they still would have had a great pitching staff.

    And RedsBaron, I stand corrected. My memory is getting old, I could have sworn Caldwell won the CY with the Crew but you are right, my friend. Heckuva year but he didn't win it, 2nd to Lightning.
    My memory wasn't perfect. I thought Grimsley was still with the Orioles in 1978. Actually by that point he had been reunited with Perez in Montreal, going 20-11 that season with the Expos.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  6. #35
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    I won, right?

    I'm pretty sure I won.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    I won, right?

    I'm pretty sure I won.
    How? Obviously you have a difficult time with either reading or reading comprehension. I repeatedly said PEREZ AND VOTTO WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE LINEUP. THat it would have been Griffey or Foster would have been out of the lineup.

  8. #37
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Votto View Post
    How? Obviously you have a difficult time with either reading or reading comprehension. I repeatedly said PEREZ AND VOTTO WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE LINEUP. THat it would have been Griffey or Foster would have been out of the lineup.
    But that wasn't the question.

    So yes, I won.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    But that wasn't the question.

    So yes, I won.
    Re-read my original post. I never stated one way or the other. The closest was saying that who was the better overall ball player, between Votto or Perez.

    How about this when Votto gets to the hall of fame, let's have a discussion. But if the past 200 games are any indication of what the future holds in Votto's career, then that discussion will only be at the Reds Hall of Fame and not Cooperstown.

  10. #39
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Nope, I win.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  11. #40
    2013 W.S. Champions Nathan's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    "It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

    I'm not a man of many words. Read my posts, and you'll see what I mean.

    Some people are Optimists (They see the glass 1/2 full).
    Others are Pessimists (They see the glass 1/2 empty).
    Me, I'm a Realist. 1/2 empty IS 1/2 full.

  12. #41
    Stat geek...and proud
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Votto View Post
    Re-read my original post. I never stated one way or the other. The closest was saying that who was the better overall ball player, between Votto or Perez.

    How about this when Votto gets to the hall of fame, let's have a discussion. But if the past 200 games are any indication of what the future holds in Votto's career, then that discussion will only be at the Reds Hall of Fame and not Cooperstown.
    The voting pool will be much more saber friendly by the time Votto is eligible.
    numbersinthereds.blogspot.com I actually made a post on 10/17/14. I promise.

  13. #42
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by gilpdawg View Post
    The voting pool will be much more saber friendly by the time Votto is eligible.
    Boom!
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  14. #43
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by gilpdawg View Post
    The voting pool will be much more saber friendly by the time Votto is eligible.
    I certainly hope so...
    Since Votto probably will retire with sub 400 home runs, sub 2800 hits, sub 1400 rbi (I know it's a team stat and not that important... yadda yadda yadda) hopefully his outstanding OPS over .900 (assuming he can keep that career pace for the next... oh... ten years), anyways hopefully his .900+ OPS will get not only Votto, but some of these players in the Hall as well.

    So, here are the Saber-Hall-of-Famers ready for enshrinement.

    (The ever import .900 and above OPS. Apparently, that is what "true fans" of baseball measure a player's career in.

    Go watch Money Ball Raisor and imagine Brad Pitt is asking you the question at the table, so you can tell us, he gets on base.

    I win.


    Name avg obp slg CAREER HR
    Bryan Giles .291/.400/.502 287
    Jim Edmonds .284/.376/.527 393
    Ryan Howard .270/.360/.543 317
    Juan Gonzalez .295/.343/.561 434
    Mo Vaughn .293/.383/.523 328
    Gary Sheffield .292/.393/.514 509
    Ken Griffey JR .284/.370/.538 630
    Prince Fielder .284/.388/.523 287
    Richie Allen .292/.378/.534 351
    Matt Holliday .310/.386/.528 253
    Babe Herman .324/.383/.532 181
    Jason Giambi .277/.400/.418 438
    Mike Piazza .308/.377/.545 427
    Ken Williams .319/.393/.530 196
    David Ortiz .286/.381/.547 437
    King Kong Keller .286/.410/.928 189
    Carlos Delgado .280/.383/.546 473
    Chipper Jones .303/.401/.529 468
    Vladimir Guerrero .318/.379/.553 449
    Edgar Martinez .312/.418/.515 309
    Albert Belle .295/.369/.564 381
    Ryan Braun .312/.374/.565 217
    Joe Jackson .356/.423/.517 54
    Alex Rodriguez .299/.384/.558 654
    Lance Berkman .293/.406/.537 366
    Lefty O'Doul .349/.413/.532 113
    Jeff Bagwell .297/.408/.540 449
    Todd Helton .316/.414/.539 369
    Jim Thome .276/.402/.554 612
    Joey Votto .313/.420/.538 161
    Miguel Cabrera .320/.398/.565 367
    Larry Walker .313/.400/.565 383
    Mark McGwire .263/.394/.588 583
    Manny Ramirez .313/.411/.585 555
    Albert Pujols .321/.409/.599 502
    Barry Bonds .298/.444/.607 762
    Bill Joyce .293/.435/.467 70
    Last edited by Don Votto; 05-06-2014 at 12:49 AM.

  15. #44
    They call me "chef"
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    What a terrible list of players!
    Cincinnati Reds 2014 W-L Record: 76.6-85.4*

    Cincinnati Reds 2015 W-L Record: TBA

    *UPDATED: 2/11/2014

  16. #45
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    Re: Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

    Oh, it's a bevy of all-stars, but less than half of that list are Hall of Fame or future Hall of Fame players.

    Ken Griffey JR .284/.370/.538 630
    Gary Sheffield .292/.393/.514 509
    Mike Piazza .308/.377/.545 427
    Chipper Jones .303/.401/.529 468
    Vladimir Guerrero .318/.379/.553 449
    Edgar Martinez .312/.418/.515 309
    Albert Belle .295/.369/.564 381
    Joe Jackson .356/.423/.517 54
    Alex Rodriguez .299/.384/.558 654
    Jeff Bagwell .297/.408/.540 449
    Jim Thome .276/.402/.554 612
    Miguel Cabrera .320/.398/.565 367
    Manny Ramirez .313/.411/.585 555
    Albert Pujols .321/.409/.599 502
    Barry Bonds .298/.444/.607 762

    (or who I think... anyways...

    Vladimir Guerrero should get in, but... who knows... was he flashy enough? Did he win big anywhere?
    Edgar Martinez won't
    Albert Belle is off the ballot.
    Sheffield, Bonds, Ramirez, Rodriguez--Steroids....
    Obviously... Joe Jackson
    Last edited by Don Votto; 05-06-2014 at 12:58 AM.


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