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Thread: The {Ugh) Bullpen

  1. #1
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    The {Ugh) Bullpen

    Did a little math tonight and what I feared was true. Out of the ten or so men who have pitched in relief for the Reds, only Partch, Broxton, Lecure, and maybe Chapman have pitched satisfactory. In 94+ innings, the bullpen has allowed 102 hits, 60 earned runs, have walked 57 (nearly one per inning) and struck out 90, They've allowed 15 home runs in what amounts to 10 games. ERA is nearly 6. The injuries count, but the front office has dropped the ball on the bullpen, which is horrendous.

    The honor roll includes Ondrusek (5.56), Hoover (8.56), Marshall (12.15), and Bell (67.50). Bell is gone and I didn't include Christiani at 5.54, but you get the point. The pen didn't cost us tonight's game, but it sure made it difficult to catch up. Of course when you only score a lone run, you have to have a great start, and Homer was off. Yep, the offense is horrible and the bullpen is horrible. It's no wonder the Reds are 3 under and continue to fall farther behind in the standings. It's going to be a long season.
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    Re: The {Ugh) Bullpen

    When Latos returns healthy, hopefully soon, then presumably Simon joins the pen. This assumes all the starters are healthy.

    My guess is Ondrusek leaves the big league team at that point.

    The wild card, however, is Marshall. If he's not deemed able to continue, then the Reds will need another reliever. That could save Ondrusek's job; it could bring Jumbo Diaz up; or it could cause the Reds to get a lefty relief replacement.

    At the end of this process, the pen should be in better shape. Hoover will come around, although it doesn't forgive another bad beginning to the season. Several of the weaker relievers this year will then be off the big league roster.

    The Marshall situation is unfortunate, but you have to wonder if he's going to be effective this season.

    Despite the call for every decent arm to be a starter, the Reds might allocate one or two higher end prospect arms to the pen. They need the reinforcements.
    Last edited by Kc61; 05-18-2014 at 12:42 AM.

  5. #3
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: The {Ugh) Bullpen

    I'm with you on this, but we disagree about Ondrusek and Hoover. At this point we cannot expect Hovver to come around; he just doesn't have enough good pitches to recover. Atlanta knew what they were doing when they dealt him to the Reds, and besides what good is a reliever who continues to give away games early in the season only to come around about July. That kind of damage cannot be the norm. My best guess is that Marshall is finished. Of course, it's speculation, but a soft tosser like him, unless he has pitches that work is toast. I hope i'm wrong. Logan should never have been given his contract. He didn't deserve it. Meanwhile, Walt fiddled around and didn't improve this club. He bet on Logan and Hoover to be stellar when obviously that wasn't goling to be the case. He didn't improve the offense and left us with a horrible bench while giving Homer a big contract (letting him go to Houston or Texas would have been a win-win). Unfortunately, we have an anemic offense now with a horrile bullpen, and wating for Hoover and Marshall to come around is not going to cut it. It's not been fun, but that's what you get when you stand pat. And just for good measure, Billy Hamilton, as mujch as I love him, is not your savior.
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    Re: The {Ugh) Bullpen

    Is it just me or does Marshall's arm slot look lower? I think it's causing his breaking pitches to be more west to east rather than north to south and allowing him to be hit harder. His fastball velocity seems a bit down too.

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    Re: The {Ugh) Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRedsFan View Post
    He didn't improve the offense and left us with a horrible bench while giving Homer a big contract (letting him go to Houston or Texas would have been a win-win).
    I'm not sure how losing one of our best starters could ever be considered a win.

    Starting pitching is what wins games.

    Considering the injuries to Votto, Mesoracco and Bruce, plus injuries to Latos, Chapman, Cingrani and Marshall, we are still only 3 games out of a wild card spot. Essentially on the back of pretty good starters.

  8. #6
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    Re: The {Ugh) Bullpen

    The (ugh) bullpen, the (ugh) offense, the (ugh) starters not named Cueto or Simon. We are three games under .500 and I feel like that is a borderline miracle led by two players who have been absolutely unconscious on the mound this year--- that and the defense is quite good. Otherwise, this season feels very, well, ugh.

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    Re: The {Ugh) Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by Edskin View Post
    The (ugh) bullpen, the (ugh) offense, the (ugh) starters not named Cueto or Simon. We are three games under .500 and I feel like that is a borderline miracle led by two players who have been absolutely unconscious on the mound this year--- that and the defense is quite good. Otherwise, this season feels very, well, ugh.
    Leake at 3.09 with a 0.99 WHIP, with only 5 ER over his last 25 innings has been far better than UGH.

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    Re: The {Ugh) Bullpen

    Of the five pitchers with the most IP on the team, only one has an ERA over 3.34.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: The {Ugh) Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRedsFan View Post
    Did a little math tonight and what I feared was true. Out of the ten or so men who have pitched in relief for the Reds, only Partch, Broxton, Lecure, and maybe Chapman have pitched satisfactory. In 94+ innings, the bullpen has allowed 102 hits, 60 earned runs, have walked 57 (nearly one per inning) and struck out 90, They've allowed 15 home runs in what amounts to 10 games. ERA is nearly 6. The injuries count, but the front office has dropped the ball on the bullpen, which is horrendous.

    The honor roll includes Ondrusek (5.56), Hoover (8.56), Marshall (12.15), and Bell (67.50). Bell is gone and I didn't include Christiani at 5.54, but you get the point. The pen didn't cost us tonight's game, but it sure made it difficult to catch up. Of course when you only score a lone run, you have to have a great start, and Homer was off. Yep, the offense is horrible and the bullpen is horrible. It's no wonder the Reds are 3 under and continue to fall farther behind in the standings. It's going to be a long season.
    Not that I disagree with you, because I totally agree. But 57 walks in 94+ innings is nowhere near 1 per inning.

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    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: The {Ugh) Bullpen

    Something that is being drastically overlooked. People are only looking at the results and not the other mitigating factors.

    The Reds are 2nd in the majors in innings pitched by the starters. 270.1 innings behind the Brewers at 271.0 (and the Brewers have played 2 more games than us as well). So what, you ask?
    The Reds are dead last in IP by the bullpen. 93 ip. Next on the list is the Braves at 107.2. Most teams are in the 130 ip range.

    Simply put, the bullpen isn't getting enough work to stay sharp. Not even close. Getting regular work is one of the most important things for a bullpen pitcher. You can get them some work in on the side, but it's just nowhere close to the same thing.

    As much as we've all loved the work done by our starting rotation...the little talked about side effect of that is a rusty bullpen. So, instead of trying desperately to spread out very few innings to alot of guys...thin the bullpen by an arm...maybe 2. Don't replace guys, send them down so they can get some regular work. Go with an extra bat or two. The current handling of the pen simply isn't working. There aren't enough innings to go around and when they do get some work in, they're rusty and killing their confidence. Domino effect.
    2014 predictions:
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    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

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    Re: The {Ugh) Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Something that is being drastically overlooked. People are only looking at the results and not the other mitigating factors.

    The Reds are 2nd in the majors in innings pitched by the starters. 270.1 innings behind the Brewers at 271.0 (and the Brewers have played 2 more games than us as well). So what, you ask?
    The Reds are dead last in IP by the bullpen. 93 ip. Next on the list is the Braves at 107.2. Most teams are in the 130 ip range.

    Simply put, the bullpen isn't getting enough work to stay sharp. Not even close. Getting regular work is one of the most important things for a bullpen pitcher. You can get them some work in on the side, but it's just nowhere close to the same thing.

    As much as we've all loved the work done by our starting rotation...the little talked about side effect of that is a rusty bullpen. So, instead of trying desperately to spread out very few innings to alot of guys...thin the bullpen by an arm...maybe 2. Don't replace guys, send them down so they can get some regular work. Go with an extra bat or two. The current handling of the pen simply isn't working. There aren't enough innings to go around and when they do get some work in, they're rusty and killing their confidence. Domino effect.
    And, additionally, when the bullpen isn't getting overused, the bullpen pitchers who pitch the most will be your better guys. So, Chapman, Broxton, Parra and Lecure will get the bulk of the bullpen work when needed. The balance will get irregular work and suffer inaccordance with the above post.

  16. #12
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: The {Ugh) Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    And, additionally, when the bullpen isn't getting overused, the bullpen pitchers who pitch the most will be your better guys. So, Chapman, Broxton, Parra and Lecure will get the bulk of the bullpen work when needed. The balance will get irregular work and suffer inaccordance with the above post.
    Exactly. Let your best pitchers pitch regularly and they'll pitch better.

    That being said, JJ, Logan, Nick and Sean are not as bad as their numbers this season indicate IMO. I truly believe that the 3 days off between games played is a significant factor in their struggles.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  17. #13
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: The {Ugh) Bullpen

    Since the team is getting so many innings from their starters, should they consider dropping a bullpen arm for an additional bench bat?
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

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  19. #14
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: The {Ugh) Bullpen

    Yes. Please.

    As I said....maybe TWO.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

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    Re: The {Ugh) Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Exactly. Let your best pitchers pitch regularly and they'll pitch better.

    That being said, JJ, Logan, Nick and Sean are not as bad as their numbers this season indicate IMO. I truly believe that the 3 days off between games played is a significant factor in their struggles.
    Sometimes a reliever is in this B group because he pitched poorly when he DID pitch more regularly. And Reds will not go with fewer relievers because of games like yesterday.


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