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Thread: Changing Attitudes on Fat in Our Diet

  1. #31
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Changing Attitudes on Fat in Our Diet

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    So what you're saying is that he scientific method worked? A theory was known and accepted until evidence came along that didn't fit with the theory and a new theory was developed that offered a better understanding? Gee, why is that a bad thing?
    It wasn't presented as a theory. Settled science is not a theory. It denotes fact

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  3. #32
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Changing Attitudes on Fat in Our Diet

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    It wasn't presented as a theory. Settled science is not a theory. It denotes fact
    I don't think with science there are facts per se. It's basically facts for now.

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  5. #33
    OlafTheBlack Dan's Avatar
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    Re: Changing Attitudes on Fat in Our Diet

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    It wasn't presented as a theory. Settled science is not a theory. It denotes fact
    Dom is right. "Settled science" as you described it is basically "our best understanding at the time given all the evidence we have." Don't ever mistake "theory" for "fact."
    The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. -- Terrance Mann (Field of Dreams)

  6. #34
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Changing Attitudes on Fat in Our Diet

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    I don't think with science there are facts per se. It's basically facts for now.
    I'd say there are few facts where diet is concerned. I'm not saying that these latest ideas on fat are facts either. In fact our gov't has yet to embrace them. The food pyramid has been replaced by this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MyPlate

    and that does not say that fats should be 70% of your diet

    It's really up to us to decide for ourselves what to put in our bodies

  7. #35
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Changing Attitudes on Fat in Our Diet

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Dom is right. "Settled science" as you described it is basically "our best understanding at the time given all the evidence we have." Don't ever mistake "theory" for "fact."
    What's "our best understanding"? Who is "our"? The US Dept of Agriculture doesn't agree with Dr Perlmutter. I wouldn't even say there's a consensus right now. Would you?
    Last edited by Sea Ray; 06-17-2014 at 03:53 PM.

  8. #36
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Changing Attitudes on Fat in Our Diet

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    I'd say there are few facts where diet is concerned. I'm not saying that these latest ideas on fat are facts either. In fact our gov't has yet to embrace them. The food pyramid has been replaced by this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MyPlate

    and that does not say that fats should be 70% of your diet

    It's really up to us to decide for ourselves what to put in our bodies
    It can be a challenge, that's for sure.

    Kingpoint said something terrific- don't trust the politicians when it comes to nutrition. You just wait- organic is the next best thing, and there will be a bidding war for the government to put things that are not organic in organic food....money, money, money...

  9. #37
    OlafTheBlack Dan's Avatar
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    Re: Changing Attitudes on Fat in Our Diet

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    What's "our best understanding"? Who is "our"? The US Dept of Agriculture doesn't agree with Dr Perlmutter. I wouldn't even say there's a consensus right now. Would you?
    "best understanding" is not "only understanding". And "our" simply means humanity's.

    I wonder if this discussion might not deserve its own thread. I'm about to head out so I won't be able to start it. Just realize that science's strength is that it doesn't offer a rigid and inflexible explanation of our universe. It changes and grows based on new or invalidated evidence.

    Think of it like this: the evidence collected are the 'facts' and the theory is the understanding that's developed that explains those facts.
    The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. -- Terrance Mann (Field of Dreams)

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  11. #38
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Changing Attitudes on Fat in Our Diet

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    "best understanding" is not "only understanding". And "our" simply means humanity's.

    I wonder if this discussion might not deserve its own thread. I'm about to head out so I won't be able to start it. Just realize that science's strength is that it doesn't offer a rigid and inflexible explanation of our universe. It changes and grows based on new or invalidated evidence.

    Think of it like this: the evidence collected are the 'facts' and the theory is the understanding that's developed that explains those facts.
    Humanity's understanding means nothing to me. I think we can agree that this is not settled science and that no one knows for sure what the best diet is

  12. #39
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    Re: Changing Attitudes on Fat in Our Diet

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post

    He's got a pretty good blog, with a forum, here: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/#axzz34v7zNz9G
    He was on the 700 CLUB yesterday (it follows the morning news around here, and I usually enjoy their first 15 minutes of programming, so it stays on in the background). You can say what you want about Fundamentalists Christians, but "the body is your temple" and that you're "stewards of your body" for the soul has merit whether you believe in a God or not. The FC's have a good understanding of this, not in an egotistical way, but in a responsible way.

    I have a responsibility to my spouse to be healthy (she's 13 years younger than I am), so that I'm not a burden later on, in addition to be able to enjoy a healthy lifestyle with her as we age.

    Sisson was doing the right things for his body long before "paleo" became the latest fad. It makes money for those who reference it and gets people to buy books, check out websites (2.5M users in the case of Sisson) and give advertisers a place to put their information. Sisson isn't "obsessed", though it's convenient that he lives near a beach (it's easy to be healthy living along the beach in Southern California) with access to sand to get in his sprints and walking. He talks common sense, with basic bone-strengthening exercises, such as push-ups, etc. I'm not disagreeing with him at all, but I've always had some angst for marketing names. People like Dr. Atkins should have been in jail. That's not the case here, but it comes back to common sense. I'm glad that Sisson is sharing his information with others, but one shouldn't have to ever buy anything in order to get good health, although it's more difficult for the poor as fresh fruit and fresh vegetables don't seem to be their first choice anymore (though it was when I was young and poor).
    "One problem with people who have no vices is that they're pretty sure to have some annoying virtues."

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    Re: Changing Attitudes on Fat in Our Diet

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    What's "our best understanding"? Who is "our"? The US Dept of Agriculture doesn't agree with Dr Perlmutter. I wouldn't even say there's a consensus right now. Would you?
    The U.S. Department of Agriculture has a former Monsanto executive in charge of it (through an Obama appointment, though don't blame it on the Democrats...it's a money thing). Monsanto has an objective that not only isn't good for the farmers of America, but is also not good for the health of the people of the United States. (very easy to google about Monsanto's influence into the world's food chain)


    Sea Ray, there are "facts" that are not disputable that get discovered every day that effect our diet. How cell structure is built and the needed chemicals for maintaining healthy cells have many facts already in place. What foods carry components that better or reduce the maintenance of healthy cell structure become known to us more and more over time.

    As you said, it's up to each individual to decide the level of effort they want to spend regarding this part of their lives. For me it fluctuates as I age, but I have a greater responsibility with a spouse 13 years younger than if I had a spouse the same age. I can understand it myself, but it helps that she's a Pharmacist, as it's not guesswork to her when it comes to understanding what some of the properties that blueberries provide to some of the cells of the body. She knows specifically what's happening. But, that's a small piece in the overall picture.

    Everything I do and have done in the past matters. "You always pay the piper", so a respected Doctor used to always say. That's a fact that doesn't change. And, so, it comes down to priorities. Do less of the negative things because it takes too many of the positive things to balance it out as I age.

    It was so much easier when we were young. I could do negative things all the time without "feeling" the effect. I would get stronger the next year. It changes at 30, at 40, at 50, etc. New goals replace old ones, and new facts replace old ideas. Everything recycles back to what I've always believed regarding health...fresh fruit, fresh vegetables, fish, some meats. But, details, such as the healing properties of blueberries, or the mercury in various seafood (mostly those who spend most of their lives in rivers, but some bays used as transportation are really bad like the San Francisco Bay) effect which specific items are used as food.

    I'll never be like some people, totally dedicated to any type of diet, as I enjoy food too much. I like the stuffed crust from Pizza Hut. It's terrible for me, but I don't care. I'm going to have it once in a while and work hard to make up for it.

    My biggest needs right now are in order:

    1. More sleep.
    2. Less eating late in the day.
    3. REDS win World Series.

    That's it.
    Last edited by Kingspoint; 06-17-2014 at 04:52 PM.
    "One problem with people who have no vices is that they're pretty sure to have some annoying virtues."

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  15. #41
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Changing Attitudes on Fat in Our Diet

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    ^^Redsfaithful. I started with Primal Blueprint by Mark Sisson. I mostly got into it because of his exercise advice. Per your experience he is dead set against what he calls "chronic cardio". All it does is lower your blood sugar, making you hungry again. He likes weights, a once-or-twice-a-week all out sprints (tennis probably has you covered there) and lots of walking. I walk about 15 miles a week and go to the gym once a week to lift weight (max load, slow) and do my sprints on a stationary bike.

    The difference between Sisson's Primal and Paleo, is that he's ok with dairy. Which is huge for me. I'm a dairy fiend. But he's against wheat, soy, corn and industrial seed oils.

    He's got a pretty good blog, with a forum, here: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/#axzz34v7zNz9G

    What I like about Sisson is that he's not afraid to change his mind.

    As to low carbs, you might try to refine your carbs. Many people find that there bodies handle white rice and potatoes fine. They're called safe-starches.

    On that note the Perfect Health Diet, puts a lof of emphasis on safe starches.
    Alright, I'm going to give this a real shot. Summer is a good time to try cutting some things out, my appetite is smaller than it is in winter. Going to check this out and for now cut out sugar until the end of June and see how I feel. I can do anything for two weeks.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
    --Oscar Wilde

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    Re: Changing Attitudes on Fat in Our Diet

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post

    Kingpoint said something terrific- don't trust the politicians when it comes to nutrition. You just wait- organic is the next best thing, and there will be a bidding war for the government to put things that are not organic in organic food....money, money, money...
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    "One problem with people who have no vices is that they're pretty sure to have some annoying virtues."

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  18. #43
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    Re: Changing Attitudes on Fat in Our Diet

    And, as far as dairy, I do dairy in Winter, but not during allergy season (very high in the Willamette Valley). I discovered on my own about 20 years ago that if I cut out dairy, I don't get the symptoms from the allergies to grasses (and blackberries, hay, some wheat, and others) that come along in March and end in mid-July. I still have the allergies, but I don't have the symptoms. Give me some milk during allergy season and I'll start sneezing before I finish drinking it. After mid-July, I can have all I want. Greek Yogurt's probiotics are good for the cells, so that's something I don't get that I could use during this time.

    I do take supplements, but not very many.
    "One problem with people who have no vices is that they're pretty sure to have some annoying virtues."

  19. #44
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Changing Attitudes on Fat in Our Diet

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post

    Sea Ray, there are "facts" that are not disputable that get discovered every day that effect our diet. How cell structure is built and the needed chemicals for maintaining healthy cells have many facts already in place. What foods carry components that better or reduce the maintenance of healthy cell structure become known to us more and more over time.
    Even the chemistry is complicated. Take for example calcium and osteoporosous. We all know we need calcium but now they're saying that your body needs other things in order to take in the calcium like vit D. I agree with you on blueberries. I think they're great for the immune system but it's possible that some study will show someday that those chemicals are not taken in by our cells properly under certain conditions. Who knows?

    I'm not so much interested in living a long life but I want to be healthy while I'm here. I don't want to be injecting insulin like my parents now have to. I'm not interested in becoming the next Charles Atlas because I want to enjoy things like steak and beer but like you I do feel an obligation to "burn off" my sins.

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    Re: Changing Attitudes on Fat in Our Diet

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    Sisson was doing the right things for his body long before "paleo" became the latest fad.
    He would tell you that he did a lot of the right things and a lot of the wrong things. He was a marathoner. One day he played pick-up basketball and nearly broke in two. He realized that he'd trained his body well for marathons but for nothing else. The fact that he's tried a lot of stuff is to his credit.

    And I don't know why you keep hitting on the word "fad". Why isn't the Meditarranean Diet a "fad". The paloe diet was a fad for the first hundred thousand years or so of human existence. Farming and eating grains is the latest thing.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

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