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Thread: As shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change?

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: As shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change?

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels View Post
    You're not the only fan in the world. Find something else to do if it bothers you that much.
    Like you did when four hits in 4 hours wasn't considered an offensive tsunami?

    I'm assuming you're conflicted when both the paint drying Olympics and grass growing championships are on the tube at the same time...which one to watch?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  4. #62
    5.3 Posts Abv Replacement BluegrassRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: As shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    Why not just have offensive/defensive units like football then? In effect, 9 designated hitters and 9 designated fielders?
    Sounds goofy -- and probably is -- but that would actually be interesting to see.

    Farrrrrr the defensive coordinator!!!
    Rounding third and heading for home...

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    5.3 Posts Abv Replacement BluegrassRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: As shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change?

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels View Post
    Baseball is for smart people.

    If you're easily bored like most sheep, find something else to do.

    The game has always been full of trends, it ebbs and flows, yet stays the same fundamentally. If you're too much of a mouth breather to understand that, we don't need you. Move on.
    Agree in principle, but a lot of younger people are moving on. It could eventually impact the game when more and more young athletes in the country start focusing on soccer or basketball instead of baseball.

    This is not trivial stuff, IMO. They must find ways to avoid games lasting more hours than total runs scored.
    Rounding third and heading for home...

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    Your killin' me Smalls! StillFunkyB's Avatar
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    Re: As shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds1869 View Post
    Don't like where the defenders are? Then don't hit the ball there.
    Really, this is all that needs to be said.
    "And the fact that watching him pitch is like having someone poop on your soul." FCB on Gary Majewski

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  8. #65
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: As shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change?

    Quote Originally Posted by BluegrassRedleg View Post
    Agree in principle, but a lot of younger people are moving on. It could eventually impact the game when more and more young athletes in the country start focusing on soccer or basketball instead of baseball.

    This is not trivial stuff, IMO. They must find ways to avoid games lasting more hours than total runs scored.
    This is the crux of the issue....can baseball actually survive if its lifeblood is a niche market of zealots who will watch no matter what?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: As shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Like you did when four hits in 4 hours wasn't considered an offensive tsunami?

    I'm assuming you're conflicted when both the paint drying Olympics and grass growing championships are on the tube at the same time...which one to watch?
    All of which are more fun than watching you try to argue subjectively, mister life of the party.

    I'm obviously messing with you, I hope you know that. Still, I'm seriously bothered by the fact that someone who has obviously spent a ton of time learning the game like you (I mean that from the bottom of my heart, you can sometimes drop some genious level stuff on us) can't seem to grasp that this is just another trend that happens from time to time, like it or not. Do you now feel as though you've wasted a ton of your free time all of the sudden? I doubt it. So why not? why wasn't it waste of time if it's so boring to you?

    Call me a Zealot, and I'll take that as a compliment. No doubt about that.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: As shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change?

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels View Post
    All of which are more fun than watching you try to argue subjectively, mister life of the party.

    I'm obviously messing with you, I hope you know that. Still, I'm seriously bothered by the fact that someone who has obviously spent a ton of time learning the game like you (I mean that from the bottom of my heart, you can sometimes drop some genious level stuff on us) can't seem to grasp that this is just another trend that happens from time to time, like it or not. Do you now feel as though you've wasted a ton of your free time all of the sudden? I doubt it. So why not? why wasn't it waste of time if it's so boring to you?

    Call me a Zealot, and I'll take that as a compliment. No doubt about that.
    I'm messing with you too.... But baseball can't survive the drought it's allowing itself to suffer and come out on the other side and be stronger.

    Baseball has even killed an in season intrigue that all fan bases could be captivated by-the trade deadline- in it's arbitrary drive for maximum parity. It's like serving diluted whiskey or bland Mexican cuisine.
    Last edited by jojo; 07-23-2014 at 08:49 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: As shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I'm messing with you too.... But baseball can't survive the drought it's allowing itself to suffer and come out on the other side and be stronger.

    Baseball has even killed an in season intrigue that all fan bases could be captivated by-the trade deadline- in it's arbitrary drive for maximum parity. It's like serving diluted whiskey or bland Mexican cuisine.
    I get what you're saying, but do you think it was killed by design?

    I just think it's a normal variance. The game was awesome before 1993, ya know?

    Wait a minute...I just realized you're alluding the extra wild card spot. That's definitely something I can agree with. It's made more teams think they've still got a shot. Yeah, I totally agree.
    Last edited by wheels; 07-23-2014 at 08:59 PM.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: As shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change?

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels View Post
    I get what you're saying, but do you think it was killed by design?

    I just think it's a normal variance. The game was awesome before 1993, ya know?
    Bud, in his zeal to convince the world that baseball is PEDs-free, just may have secretly messed with the balls and bats and has taken other measures to favor the pitcher. He's certainly did what ever he could to archieve what he calls parity. The dude is covert evil.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: As shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Bud, in his zeal to convince the world that baseball is PEDs-free, just may have secretly messed with the balls and bats and has taken other measures to favor the pitcher. He's certainly did what ever he could to archieve what he calls parity. The dude is covert evil.
    They said the inverse in 1987, though. Things quickly bounced back to the norm in subsequent years. I just think it's typical cat and mouse stuff between pitchers and hitters. That, and we might be learning that expansion works both ways, it just took a few years for the talent pool to cycle towards the pitching end.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

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    Re: As shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Bud, in his zeal to convince the world that baseball is PEDs-free, just may have secretly messed with the balls and bats and has taken other measures to favor the pitcher. He's certainly did what ever he could to archieve what he calls parity. The dude is covert evil.
    No "covert" about it. I once wrote an email to Marty and Joe (RIP), which they read on-air, in which I referred to Bud as "the Antichrist of baseball".
    Eric Stratton, Rush Chairman. Damn glad to meet ya.

  16. #72
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    Re: As shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Hardcore fans, which is the majority on RZ, don't mind low scoring games. The casual fan that makes up 85% of the attendance and viewers get bored with it. I could be a casual fan of soccer - it is a beautiful game. But I find watching a match to be drudgery. 1-0. 2-1. 0-0. I know I'd watch more if they scored more. I don't know what they will do but I will bet you a couple things. First, the NL will adopt the DH at some point, and if the pitching domination gets too out of balance they will change some rules. Strike zone. Defensive shifts. Something will be done. Attendance skyrocketed in the steroid years. Purists hated the softball like scores, obviously, casual fans liked it. Casual fans love scoring and the casual fan is the dollar sign to MLB. I think they'll just watch how it goes for couple more years, though, before tinkering with rule changes.
    I am a hardcore fan. I thought the baseball of the first half of the 2000s was more fun to watch than baseball today, on average. Focusing on run environment misses the point. It wasn't the runs per se'. It was simply that there was more going on. Not just more runs, but more baserunnners who may or may not steal. More plays at the bases. And yes, more balls over the fence. It's funny, while hardcore people bemoaned steroid-ball as a joke, they never said "we need more strikeouts" or "we need more weak grounders to 2B". People did say they wanted fewer walks. Instead, we've mostly just traded singles for a whole bunch of strikeouts.

    The vast majority of baseball is inaction; at least soccer has non-stop action (which can be more fully enjoyed once one appreciates the nuances of the sport). Excitement and enjoyment come from the full range of experiences the sport has to offer. Even in the height of the 90's, there was no shortage of tense batter-pitcher matchups. It was not hard to see a well-executed pitch leading to a strikeout or a batter working a walk. The strategy of baseball is largely overwrought, with rote correct answers to the most appropriate decision in most cases. I don't think it has to do with being hardcore enough to enjoy a low scoring game because not all low scoring games are created equal. Neither are all high scoring games.

    I was born in 1982. Some interest comparisons arise between 1982 and 2013. In both years, teams averaged 8.6 runs per game (combined), just as they do now. But if we look at qualified batters and starting pitchers, we can see the game was quite different.
    Code:
    Batters	 Count	PA	AVG	OBP	SLG	K%	BB%	HR	BABIP	SB
    1982	 140	613	.275	.340	.424	17.0	12.3	15.7	.292	14
    2013	 140	607	.272	.338	.435	24.7	11.8	17.8	.308	10
    										
    Pitchers Count	IP	ERA	FIP		K/9	BB/9	HR/9	BABIP	
    1982	 89	212	3.82	3.79		5.0	2.9	0.81	.277	
    2013	 81	195	3.61	3.64		7.6	2.6	0.91	.289
    In short, despite the run scoring environment being the same, batters in 1982 put the ball in play much more often. Each ball in play did a little bit less damage in terms of power per ball in play, but the net output was similar. Once on base, those runners ran more, especially if we were to factor in caught stealing.

    To put a fine point on the strikeout issue: In 1982, just 6 of the 90 qualified SP had a K/9 above 7.0 (7%). Last year, it was 52 of 81 (64%) did. It may be interesting to some to learn that we have seen a huge boon in walks.

    What has happened is quite simple. Today's batters hit the ball less often, but harder. No more runs are scoring and yet games take something like 30 minutes longer than they did 30 years ago. A soccer game takes 2 hours, during the vast majority of which the ball is in play. A baseball game routinely takes 3 or more hours, during the vast majority of which the ball is not in play.

    Baseball has always been a game played at a leisurely pace. But never in its history has it had so little action outside of the batter-pitcher matchup and never has it taken so long to complete a game. That is a recipe for boredom. We can discuss/debate all of the factors at play, but today's game inevitably produces longer stretches of repetition and general inaction than ever before. Even the most hardcore among us gets a big thrill seeing bat hit ball.

    If I had my druthers, I'd lower the mound, use technology to call the zone per the rule book and push all the fences back 10 feet to reward balls hit in to play and increase the value of speed. That would be a start. But I fear that our technology has produced a version of the sport that is likely to be skewed toward the defense for quite some time. And once teams start investing in real medical research to keep elite pitchers healthier, look out.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 07-23-2014 at 10:34 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: As shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    What is the name of this new game?

    I'm familiar with the game of baseball, but this description doesn't resemble it.

    There goes the first pitch fastball HR. Heisey would be out of a job.
    It really wouldn't play out much different, just quicker. Think about it. Not much pitching/hitting strategy takes places until you get to 1-1. A pitcher gets two quick strikes on a hitter, and what happens next? A waste pitch. Every freaking time.

    This would get rid of waste pitches. Every pitch would be important, making it much more interesting to watch. And the Chess match would still be there, it just would be more intense.

    But it will never happen. Fans wouldn't be able to adjust to it quickly enough. But if the game started with this concept 100+ years ago, no one would think it was wrong or weird.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  19. #74
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    As shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I am a hardcore fan. I thought the baseball of the first half of the 2000s was more fun to watch than baseball today, on average. Focusing on run environment misses the point. It wasn't the runs per se'. It was simply that there was more going on. Not just more runs, but more baserunnners who may or may not steal. More plays at the bases. And yes, more balls over the fence. It's funny, while hardcore people bemoaned steroid-ball as a joke, they never said "we need more strikeouts" or "we need more weak grounders to 2B". People did say they wanted fewer walks. Instead, we've mostly just traded singles for a whole bunch of strikeouts.

    The vast majority of baseball is inaction; at least soccer has non-stop action (which can be more fully enjoyed once one appreciates the nuances of the sport). Excitement and enjoyment come from the full range of experiences the sport has to offer. Even in the height of the 90's, there was no shortage of tense batter-pitcher matchups. It was not hard to see a well-executed pitch leading to a strikeout or a batter working a walk. The strategy of baseball is largely overwrought, with rote correct answers to the most appropriate decision in most cases. I don't think it has to do with being hardcore enough to enjoy a low scoring game because not all low scoring games are created equal. Neither are all high scoring games.

    I was born in 1982. Some interest comparisons arise between 1982 and 2013. In both years, teams averaged 8.6 runs per game (combined), just as they do now. But if we look at qualified batters and starting pitchers, we can see the game was quite different.

    In short, despite the run scoring environment being the same, batters in 1982 put the ball in play much more often. Each ball in play did a little bit less damage in terms of power per ball in play, but the net output was similar. Once on base, those runners ran more, especially if we were to factor in caught stealing.

    To put a fine point on the strikeout issue: In 1982, just 6 of the 90 qualified SP had a K/9 above 7.0 (7%). Last year, it was 52 of 81 (64%) did. It may be interesting to some to learn that we have seen a huge boon in walks.

    What has happened is quite simple. Today's batters hit the ball less often, but harder. No more runs are scoring and yet games take something like 30 minutes longer than they did 30 years ago. A soccer game takes 2 hours, during the vast majority of which the ball is in play. A baseball game routinely takes 3 or more hours, during the vast majority of which the ball is not in play.

    Baseball has always been a game played at a leisurely pace. But never in its history has it had so little action outside of the batter-pitcher matchup and never has it taken so long to complete a game. That is a recipe for boredom. We can discuss/debate all of the factors at play, but today's game inevitably produces longer stretches of repetition and general inaction than ever before. Even the most hardcore among us gets a big thrill seeing bat hit ball.

    If I had my druthers, I'd lower the mound, use technology to call the zone per the rule book and push all the fences back 10 feet to reward balls hit in to play and increase the value of speed. That would be a start. But I fear that our technology has produced a version of the sport that is likely to be skewed toward the defense for quite some time. And once teams start investing in real medical research to keep elite pitchers healthier, look out

    .
    Loved me the game on big field, with fast grass and tall walls. It moved, it wasn't grinding action to a halt, waiting for your pitch, station to station ball.

    That said I'm ingesting my third game today and will watch the rest of another later.

    So I'm adaptable, most humans are. If they understand that time is a real factor, not something you force either.

    Thus I let the game adjust itself first
    Last edited by westofyou; 07-23-2014 at 10:53 PM.

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  21. #75
    5.3 Posts Abv Replacement BluegrassRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: As shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change?

    On a related note, the ESPN game tonight is 0-0 in the 9th inning. The game is 4 hours old (with a 59-minute rain delay).

    This game 25 years ago would be 2 hours and change at the same point, without rain.
    Rounding third and heading for home...

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